the normal content is too easy

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

*snip*

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This. There is a marked absence of flexibility in the thinking of some here. The fact that the Trust system, as it is currently implemented, is not designed to accommodate those seeking an easier experience does not preclude it from being tweaked to achieve that, which is what is being suggested and I'd say being deliberately disregarded. Between that and dumbing down normal MSQ content, the former is my preferred option. If some people want baby level difficulty, use a system being widely deployed across older and current dungeons and eventually trials too to deliver that option. It does nothing to stop people from teaming up, and use party chat to communicate if they're apprehensive about mechanics or run it with friends... part and parcel of the 'social' experience, which does not require keeping normal content at trivial levels of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

This. There is a marked absence of flexibility in the thinking of some here. The fact that the Trust system, as it is currently implemented, is not designed to accommodate those seeking an easier experience does not preclude it from being tweaked to achieve that, which is what is being suggested and I'd say being deliberately disregarded. Between that and dumbing down normal MSQ content, the former is my preferred option. If some people want baby level difficulty, use a system being widely deployed across older and current dungeons and eventually trials too to deliver that option. It does nothing to stop people from teaming up, and use party chat to communicate if they're apprehensive about mechanics or run it with friends... part and parcel of the 'social' experience, which does not require keeping normal content at trivial levels of difficulty.

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Heavily disagree. If people want to use trusts then that is a choice to play solo, NOT a difficulty choice. The two are separate concepts.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

Why are you so self-defeating? *snip*

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I'll address that question, but don't feel the need to address the remainder of the post.

Is it self-defeating? Simple fact is, I'm not very good at the game. I struggled to complete the MSQ on 'Normal' and had to resort to using 'Easy' and, on occasion, 'Very Easy' to proceed through it. And, like it or not, reading through this thread makes it clear that I shouldn't have found it difficult, shouldn't have struggled and shouldn't have needed to use the easy options.

It isn't like I haven't tried improving - I've tried damn hard in fact. I read/watched guides as that was the first suggestion many made; however, watching someone else do something is one thing - putting what you just saw into practice/practical use is another, and my reflexes and ability to respond to mechanics are nothing like what I watched.
I'd say I'm probably marginally better than I was when started playing back in December, but that isn't saying much. Although I have finally finshed Endwalker I've avoided running content that involves teaming with other players as much as possible as don't wish to be a burden on anyone. I'll also note that I am neither saying nor implying that SE should change anything to suit me. This a 'me' issue.

That aside, the problem is that I absolutely loved the story. That was why, despite my poor performance, I persisted. That was why, after being KO'ed by Zenos the umpteenth time I tried one more time and eventually blundered my way to a win.

So yeah, I guess I do sound defeatist - but it's really very hard not to feel that way when there are two or three threads here full of players saying that the game is too easy, and implying that there is no excuse for being bad at the game.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

So yeah, I guess I do sound defeatist - but it's really very hard not to feel that way when there are two or three threads here full of players saying that the game is too easy, and implying that there is no excuse for being bad at the game.

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It really irks me when players do that. Of course, if you've played this game every day for the past 10 years with very few breaks, it's going to seem easy, and the mechanics are going to feel dated. That doesn't necessarily mean that the game's gotten easier. It means that players have gotten better at it. I find it really sad and irritating when a player like you who readily admits their faults and their willingness to learn is met with outright hostility and dismissiveness on the forums. Thankfully, players in the game are generally much kinder. Don't let the forums bully you away from trying normal-level team content in the game. People are way nicer in the game than they are on here.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

So yeah, I guess I do sound defeatist - but it's really very hard not to feel that way when there are two or three threads here full of players saying that the game is too easy, and implying that there is no excuse for being bad at the game.

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I think I read prior you were having trouble with the final Zenos fight. With just a quick search of your lodestone I noticed a Manusya Ring of Aiming Lv. 81 Item Level 520 and a Augmented Crystarium Ring of Aiming level 80 Item Level 500. I am assuming the content you were doing is level 90 or close to this alone could have been what was giving you trouble. I may be off base, but just going off of my own experience just having two rings that are way out of spec could be causing issues with completing a dps check. Every bit of your gear is important especially when getting to a certain level. I mentioned in a post that older gear starts to become less helpful as you level due to how the devs implimented the power scaling of our characters so say if you had ironworks by the time you reach level 60 that gear is worthless at somepoint because as we grown in levels every stat is decreased until it finally balances out with the newer gear.

Trust me though I know playing dps through a story quest can be rough even just job quests. I remember having a particularly hard time during on sam quest with the starter gear 115 set they give you. I did learn the value of potions and using the shield ability off cooldown, but I honestly do not believe the devs intended for me to just do the level 56 I think it was quest with barely any gear upgrades. Even with all ironworks it was still a tough fight but I learned a lot from it. Though there are some fights that make me salty like the level 60 redmage fight that the npc will attempt to sit in every aoe and it is the players fault for them standing in the burning aoe, so veracure spamming the npc was a must.

Though I may just have bad luck. Wonkiness aside something that I would like to see and unsure if this would assist would be allowing multiple players to go through a story. This was something I enjoyed from other games especially something like dark souls you could have the option to help someone through the story instead of it being a solo instance. If you do not feel your skills are enough it is not a bad thing to wish for help in a situation. That is a strength. Admitting defeat in something. Though I would like the option for things to be more difficult sometimes, I also would wish for things to be more polished especially older content, and for those who wish to experience the story and are having issues to be able to set a story mode feature if they really do not wish to deal with gaming aspect and physically can't or just wish to experience the story to be able to. I am feeling more jaded about the devs ever implimenting any of these things but would like it.

I also wished to be able to do content unsynced. Current content unsynced for the challenge because it would be nice to not have to get a static together or go to party finder when I inevitably get to the end game. Not everyone I play with is online all of the time, many have different work hours than I do, and it would allow for people who want the challenge to be able to test things out. People already do this to solo things they get friends to join and than they leave so that one warrior could attempt a solo attempt. I still have no clue why they force synced content in current tiers because it kind of ruins the experimentation and fun possibilities I wish mess with.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Heavily disagree. If people want to use trusts then that is a choice to play solo, NOT a difficulty choice. The two are separate concepts.

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It is a difficulty choice in the end though. It does make things easier in the end. It’s two in one lol. But a friend of mine brought up how WoW’s WOTLK expansion was the peak of mmo history and it’s casual content wasn’t nearly as streamlined as 14’s currently is…so if they can do it and retain a peak number of players then 14 can too.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It is a difficulty choice in the end though. It does make things easier in the end. It’s two in one lol. But a friend of mine brought up how WoW’s WOTLK expansion was the peak of mmo history and it’s casual content wasn’t nearly as streamlined as 14’s currently is…so if they can do it and retain a peak number of players then 14 can too.

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Actually some things in trusts are easier while others are harder. Really it's more of a gameplay style choice.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It is a difficulty choice in the end though. It does make things easier in the end. It’s two in one lol. But a friend of mine brought up how WoW’s WOTLK expansion was the peak of mmo history and it’s casual content wasn’t nearly as streamlined as 14’s currently is…so if they can do it and retain a peak number of players then 14 can too.

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I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Like Xirean said, some aspects of trusts are easier (the NPCs usually stand in safe spots, so if you stick with them you're generally safe), but others are more difficult (your death is an instant wipe with no second chances). What do you mean by "streamlined" in the context of WotLK? You could literally level from 1-80 without touching a single dungeon in WotLK, and it's not like their quests were super difficult. The dungeons themselves were so easy even by those days' standards that players often claim (falsely, IMO) that they caused the game's downfall by "dumbing it down." The typical rotation had about four buttons that were usually hit in a repetitive manner (hence the term, "rotation"). Specs that had to worry about timers (like shadow priest) had even simpler rotations that consisted of one cooldown, one filler skill, and a couple of dots that had to be managed. As you said, they somehow managed to retain a peak number of players despite having all the flaws that the OP is calling out: mechanics that are "telegraphed, repetitive, and predictable." So in what sense are you saying that FFXIV's content is streamlined? To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Count me as one of those players who played for the story above all else. And yeah, I found it hard. And that's difficult to admit in a thread full of forumites implying that bad players shouldn't be bad and don't deserve to play the game.
Partly due to my lacking performance at least, I have no intention of going anywhere near anything above 'Normal' level content.

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Its okay! what's important is knowing what you can and want but a lot of people see inability in video games as an excuse. Well being good at video games isn't an essential part of life and there's no need to defend yourself against people that think being good at video games should be the norm xD

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You can play this game when you're in the mood for casual story mode, or for the harder content you can unlock once story mode is completed. If you aren't in the mood for story mode but don't have the other content unlocked yet, there are plenty of other games to choose from that will give you the difficult content you desire and you can return here when you're back in the mood for story mode.

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I think this is core to the problem. Whatever changes may have been made in job or encounter design, this has always been a theme park MMO. It's never been something that was developed in a manner to be someone's only game or something where the game gives you hard reasons to need to log in and accomplish things every single day. There's always been a bit of our needing to find our own reasons by partaking in content available. And I think a lot of arguments come from this expectation of being kept busy every minute in whatever someone's given content is. But your suggestion is the sort of thing the devs advocate. They want us to enjoy what we like about XIV and then if we're away a bit, it's still here for us to enjoy when we get back.

What I feel is that in normal mode difficulties - on learning stages at least - the challenge is mostly upon the healer's shoulders.

If you get average, and under, healers, bad pugs might need a few tries.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

So yeah, I guess I do sound defeatist - but it's really very hard not to feel that way when there are two or three threads here full of players saying that the game is too easy, and implying that there is no excuse for being bad at the game.

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It's really not worth taking the opinion of the forum on much of anything at this point. If you believe the thrust of the general forum opinion for the last few months, the game is a smoking crater of terribleness that has only been getting worse for at least 5 years. And you'd get the feeling that YoshiP and team literally had their friends and family hostage, and were somehow forcing them to keep playing and paying for the game regardless of how absolutely terribly awful and bad the game is (and has been for years).

Keep enjoying the game as you are.

@Xirean

Except these are not seperate concepts. Trust are consistently easier by way of removing human error to just a factor of one instead of 4. So they already serve the purpose we are arguing for. We just want the other half to get implemented and that is that we want an msq that isnt braindead especially lower level content. Which I need to remind everyone was not by design. Its a side effect of end game dps balancing.

@Ronduwil

Dont be ridiculous. Non telegraph and randomness doesnt automaticaly equal savage or extreme especially since those hardcore modes still have telegraphes and are non random. The OP was just using those as examples on how to achieve the added dofficulty he wants. It says nothing about making them savage level. My own opinion is i just want higher hp pool for bosses to match power creep or maybe nerf ilvl or something.


Also as a whole I feel the side that wants the game to be stupid easy are belittling unskilled players. You know how you get skilled? A good difficulty curve. Thats how. This game is 0 to 1000.

@Carin-Eri

I dont speak for everyone here but im talking about dungeons and trials. Not the solo msq. The solo msq can be difficult. I dont know how far you are in the story but one in Endwalker was pretty tense imo. So dont feel bad on these.

This is why I stress on the game havin a good difficulty curve. It used to have one but its gone. A good difficulty curve can turn a player who is struggling into improving their skills. You probaly could have benefited with one.

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Originally Posted by WildTamarind

Except these are not seperate concepts. Trust are consistently easier by way of removing human error to just a factor of one instead of 4. So they already serve the purpose we are arguing for. We just want the other half to get implemented and that is that we want an msq that isnt braindead especially lower level content. Which I need to remind everyone was not by design. Its a side effect of end game dps balancing.

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So say for sake of argument that this happens. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and push for it to get harder and it does. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and they push for it to get harder and it does.

Where is it going to end once the developers start deciding to go down this path?

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

So in what sense are you saying that FFXIV's content is streamlined? To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

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I mean, besides the fact that Yoshi P himself stated that the dungeons have been streamlined? Let’s compare jobs from HW to SB to ShB and now to EW. You can see the gradual downward trend of them being streamlined and simplified. Then look at the loss of a number of dungeons, and yoshi p going on record saying he wanted dungeons to be streamlined in EW. Now we get to EW and we have constant forced single pulls in nearly if not every single dungeon. It’s not hard to see it’s gotten streamlined over the years and especially in EW. I mean we can even just look at healers, where they lost all multiple dots and dps spells.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So say for sake of argument that this happens. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and push for it to get harder and it does. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and they push for it to get harder and it does.

Where is it going to end once the developers start deciding to go down this path?

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I mean this can go both ways. I could ask where is the simplification and streamlining going to end? The fact is it hasnt, its gotten worse and worse each expansion, and somehow this is okay.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So say for sake of argument that this happens. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and push for it to get harder and it does. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and they push for it to get harder and it does.

Where is it going to end once the developers start deciding to go down this path?

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But we're going down this path right now, but in the opposite way. The accessibility has been getting to the point that the players who originally play these roles feel alienated due to these changes for the sake of "accessibility". Accessibility is good, but there is a limit before it starts alienating others as well. We're past that point with healers who left in droves during SHB and Endwalker due to the 2 button DoT and Nuke DPS gameplay for the sake of making healer gameplay easier, and it's getting even worse because tanks can now heal themselves to the point healers can just not exist in Lv 90 Dungeons. I felt more importance healing in a Lv 41 dungeon than a level 90 one, and that should speak volumes about the state of gameplay right now.

Now it's slowly happening to Samurai now too (with Kaiten removal, the Kenki gauge is just for Shinten and only Shinten). Now you can apply this concept to normal content as well because there's less things to keep track of and demand your attention in a boss fight. Where do you stop here then?

Accessibility is good, but there needs to be a balance, and a cutoff point. WoW has went to the extreme with hardcore raiding, but FFXIV is starting to head down to the path of child's play casual rather than just casual friendly.

The game need a difficulty curve and tutorial's at the moment both are missing and its showing. ALso the content in normal is so simple and without thought that somtimes when devs decide "this encounter needs to be spicy" a big part of the player base is shocked in for a rude awakeinging. The second trial for example, many people complaint about it. For me this shows the problem, instead of a steadly increasing difficulty, we got "there you go all this fights are idiot proof but hey this one is not". Thats were the problem is rooted. Try and ask a new tank please stop this cast of the boss or a dps please focus adds + dodge mechanics or a simple dispel from the healers. Then i meet player's that have with lvl 90 no clue about: line attack marker, gathering marker, flare marker or line/aoe tank buster marker. Even worse some bosses use "animation" to telegraph their mechanics.

First of all why are these mechanics not in a tutorial, second why is not normal for trash or bosses on normal to teach this on a regular basis. Why are some old dungeons way more difficult then new ones ? Simple, the dev's assume the normal player is a idiot with a crayon addiction. To change this, trash need to be teaching and bosses need a theme that can be recongnized and as the level increases the themed bosses will get more to their array of mechanics up to the max level of the content segment where the boss has its maximum potential. If you use this in a expansion you teach your players step by step the mechanics and how to behave in a fight. At the end is boils down to: dear dev's please stop assume all your player are idiots.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So say for sake of argument that this happens. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and push for it to get harder and it does. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and they push for it to get harder and it does.

Where is it going to end once the developers start deciding to go down this path?

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when it's a souls game xD
Seriously though, normal content will always be designed for the average skill of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

But we're going down this path right now, but in the opposite way. The accessibility has been getting to the point that the players who originally play these roles feel alienated due to these changes for the sake of "accessibility". Accessibility is good, but there is a limit before it starts alienating others as well. We're past that point with healers who left in droves during SHB and Endwalker due to the 2 button DoT and Nuke DPS gameplay for the sake of making healer gameplay easier, and it's getting even worse because tanks can now heal themselves to the point healers can just not exist in Lv 90 Dungeons. I felt more importance healing in a Lv 41 dungeon than a level 90 one, and that should speak volumes about the state of gameplay right now.

Now it's slowly happening to Samurai now too (with Kaiten removal, the Kenki gauge is just for Shinten and only Shinten). Now you can apply this concept to normal content as well because there's less things to keep track of and demand your attention in a boss fight. Where do you stop here then?

Accessibility is good, but there needs to be a balance, and a cutoff point. WoW has went to the extreme with hardcore raiding, but FFXIV is starting to head down to the path of child's play casual rather than just casual friendly.

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It's definitely a tricky balance. For the moment, it appears to be working for them. It could certainly bite them in the behind at some future point. But they will assuredly kill their game if they progressively raise a bar and make the playerbase who can reach that smaller and smaller.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Like I said in your other thread, they now have every opportunity to relegate their super easy mode stuff to an option for the trust modes, and leave the general DF content - trials in particular - at more decent levels of difficulty, and I hope they take advantage of this. It's all well and good having harder modes of content but that shouldn't become an excuse to dumb down stuff in normal mode to an extreme.

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Damn, nice idea! Everyone would get what they want. It'd take SQ a bit to do the AI for everything, but it'd be worth it! or just let everything function like Squadrons (where you can control the NPCS Movement/who they attack) and do it that way!

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I think this is core to the problem. Whatever changes may have been made in job or encounter design, this has always been a theme park MMO. It's never been something that was developed in a manner to be someone's only game or something where the game gives you hard reasons to need to log in and accomplish things every single day. There's always been a bit of our needing to find our own reasons by partaking in content available. And I think a lot of arguments come from this expectation of being kept busy every minute in whatever someone's given content is. But your suggestion is the sort of thing the devs advocate. They want us to enjoy what we like about XIV and then if we're away a bit, it's still here for us to enjoy when we get back.

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The issue with this design philosophy is they simply don't make enough content to sustain it. Look at the upcoming 6.1. Here we have a patch intended to last us four months and unless you're attempting Dragonsong, none of that content will take more than a week. Even if you casually farmed Endsinger, it would still only take a few weeks. Everything else is one and done story content. Which is far from a bad thing. In fact, I welcome it. However, once you've completed each quest, there's nothing else. So we're taking breaks for 2-3 months at a time. I don't necessarily want FFXIV to demand my attention every waking second like some MMOs do but I'd like to more than a week's worth of content. It continues to baffle me why they delay the relic for so damn long when it's the ideal grind content to keep people occupied. Granted, longevity as a whole has been something FFXIV struggles with badly.

If I was a developer I'd think that a final boss in a dungeon should have at least 1 mechanic that if failed then it's a wipe, the EW bosses are so easy you can simply ignore mechanics and just DPS through it.

Hermes True Bravery does not get interrupted because why would you interrupt it? You can ignore it because you won't die from it, Interrupt is such a forgotten concept that over 75% of tanks and RDPS don't even know what Interject and Headgraze does and why is that? because you don't need to follow mechanics.

The main problem with FF14 is that they make content that is too easy or too difficult, they don't know how to make a middle ground and they don't make enough content to keep people occupied for at least a 1 months worth of subscription time but yeah it is expected that since every expansion has been declining on content.

I feel like trials (except maybe the really early ones) and raids have a pretty decent difficulty, but I think they just need to speed up the momentum of dungeon boss fights especially.

The mechanics need to start overlapping sooner, and not every mechanic needs to channel for 5+ seconds.

At the point when the mechanics start overlapping and the fight actually gets a bit interesting, you've already downed 3/4 of the boss' health.

@Talera

Sorry but I dont entertain slipperyslopes. Even if it were possible the scenerio youve listed then we would complain about the game being too hard. But just because there might exist a future problem doesnt mean we can ignore the current one.

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Originally Posted by WildTamarind

@Talera

Sorry but I dont entertain slipperyslopes. Even if it were possible the scenerio youve listed then we would complain about the game being too hard. But just because there might exist a future problem doesnt mean we can ignore the current one.

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Not only that, but they would likely be smart enough to slow/stop whenever they see it affecting subs; It's a dial like any other. Tweak the dial a little bit, see how many "top players" you keep and how many "bottom of the barrel" players stick around. Do it again until the people leaving is the same as or more than the people you hold onto and there's the sweet spot.

It's surely what they're doing now with lowering the difficulty. They're seeing complaints from people about it being "too easy" but on the flip side seeing people stick around.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

I feel like trials (except maybe the really early ones) and raids have a pretty decent difficulty, but I think they just need to speed up the momentum of dungeon boss fights especially.

The mechanics need to start overlapping sooner, and not every mechanic needs to channel for 5+ seconds.

At the point when the mechanics start overlapping and the fight actually gets a bit interesting, you've already downed 3/4 of the boss' health.

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A lot of old content that was "Normal" level difficulty and fine as they were is currently "Very Easy" because the ilvl sync is way too lenient with modern Job skills. This leads to people ignoring the mechanics and even skipping quite a lot of them. If they tried to bring the content back to Normal difficulty it would make leveling and story progressing feel more meaningful while not being overtly difficult. How can you expect players to become familiar with mechanics if they can be straight up ignored or never seen in first place?
To add to this, some ARR and early HW markers should be standardized with the later expansions as some of them make no sense with modern unified markers (like stack marker being purple split marker in WoD, Sohm Al having Red and Blue split markers where Red is actually stack etc.)

EW itself is bit odd case too since the 81 dungeon is probably the hardest of them along with 90 story one (which is due 2 of the bosses being actually fairly good), most others are really simple and straightforward.

They really should hold stuff like 81 final boss and 90 first and second boss as the standard for boss fights as those feel hectic and are fun to fight. Not stuff like the 83 final boss which was major dissapointment in abilities or even worse some other 3 easy mechanic bosses.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

A lot of old content that was "Normal" level difficulty and fine as they were is currently "Very Easy" because the ilvl sync is way too lenient with modern Job skills. This leads to people ignoring the mechanics and even skipping quite a lot of them. If they tried to bring the content back to Normal difficulty it would make leveling and story progressing feel more meaningful while not being overtly difficult. How can you expect players to become familiar with mechanics if they can be straight up ignored or never seen in first place?
To add to this, some ARR and early HW markers should be standardized with the later expansions as some of them make no sense with modern unified markers (like stack marker being purple split marker in WoD, Sohm Al having Red and Blue split markers where Red is actually stack etc.)

EW itself is bit odd case too since the 81 dungeon is probably the hardest of them along with 90 story one (which is due 2 of the bosses being actually fairly good), most others are really simple and straightforward.

They really should hold stuff like 81 final boss and 90 first and second boss as the standard for boss fights as those feel hectic and are fun to fight. Not stuff like the 83 final boss which was major dissapointment in abilities or even worse some other 3 easy mechanic bosses.

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Hard agree with all points.

I played at 2.0 launch and didn't come back until 5.2 and started over and watched MTQ guides for every dungeon as I came to them. I remembered how to stop the adds in Sastasha and ran around hitting the water and noticed nobody else was doing it. It took me until StB to realize that most of the mechanisms just don't matter anymore, and that's the big problem.

Some of the EW fights were great, and others were a little disappointing. Though, I feel like the last boss in the 85 dungeon was a little too easy, but saw someone in NN saying that they gave up on running it with a trust after 60 minutes and refused to run it with a trust anymore and instead wanted to be carried..errr....run it with other people.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

If I was a developer I'd think that a final boss in a dungeon should have at least 1 mechanic that if failed then it's a wipe, the EW bosses are so easy you can simply ignore mechanics and just DPS through it.

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Yeah, but in a game like this, it's always: You died to the mechanic. Now you know what's going to happen, so you'll never die to it again. Also, getting one-shotted becuse of ignorance is the lamest thing in gaming.

The most "challenge" you can get is min-maxing the heck out of you stats. That's it.

The way people beg for punishment in every game disguising it as a "challenge" makes me thing they are trying to manifest the Grievous Miracle in real life. Stop before you succeed!

I would leave the normals as they are due to the fact I would hypothesis the majority of the players (the money) are okay with doing these at the difficultly they are currently.

However, maybe opt in some added reward for an increased difficulty setting. That could be implemented in infinite ways (thus the problem 'resources') but I could see that perhaps happening eventually. Ex. Bosses or Final Boss has some mechanics sped up or added. Or simply just give all the mobs a boost *shrug* or a puzzle etc..

They did this already with hard mode dungeons I gather but extending this train of thought would be welcomed.

I would not mind a hard/tough Stigma kupo that dungeon in my opinion (obviously lol) is much easier than The Dead Ends. Perhaps it was done on purpose?

<3 kupo

Theres a few talkings points i want to address. Pardon my grammar and spelling but im typing this in what little down time i have at work.

1) the idea that the low difficulty is by design for the sake of accesability. This is flat out not true. Its a side effect of Shb redesign of the holy trinity, tanking, healer and dps. Accessibility is a great thing and I like that this company takes the effort to do that but trusts are the best approach for that because its easier unless you get a group that carries you in multiplayer. It also allows you to learn at your own pace.

2) the idea that the game didnt become easier we as a player base just got better after 10 years of playing the game. This may be true but I have two friends of comparable skill one played before Shb and the other after. Pre-shb friend did Ifrit Normal and was like "man that felt like a real boss from like a single player game. I want to queue again." Mind you we didnt wipe. We cleared it pretty easy. But the spectacle of it was awesome. Second friend post-shb did Ifrit normal and was like "Thats it? That was stupid. Very dissapointing." And it was because we destroyed him super fast. Im sorry but no amount of increase in player skill can account to that. Thats straight up raw damage increase from Shb. And I like the Shb change. It always bothered me that melee classes would purposely nerf their damage. But this great buff came at the cost of the lower level enjoyment.

3) that the current system is working for them. Its not. What do we know? We know that the hype for this game that lead to such a large increase was streamer hype and story hype from Endwalker being the finale to the story. Gameplay hype was minimal. We also know that people quit this game at ARR both because tue story takes a while to kick in but also because the gameplay is boring.

Im actualy okay with ARR being a bit boring. Weed out the impatient. I love that in this game people have the patience to withstand wiping. In WoW imediately after a wipe people leave sometimes followed with the classic "uninstal the game and kill yourself". But of course im asking for a difficulty curve so ARR can be biring but ramps up slightly harder at HW and SB. It helps keep the game interesting.

4) the idea that hardcore players are being rude and inconsiderate regarding players who do find the game hard. This may also be true but again, a proper difficulty curve actualy helps those players.

Thise of us who like harder content should be mindful of those who this game might be their first mmo or hell even their first game period. But also also those who want to keep the games current extremely easy difficulty may want to consider that perhaps you are not helping these players succeed. Anybody can improve on tue game and with the right systems we can make it easier for those who striggle with harder difficulty actually achieve competency to overcome that difficulty.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean, besides the fact that Yoshi P himself stated that the dungeons have been streamlined? Let’s compare jobs from HW to SB to ShB and now to EW. You can see the gradual downward trend of them being streamlined and simplified. Then look at the loss of a number of dungeons, and yoshi p going on record saying he wanted dungeons to be streamlined in EW. Now we get to EW and we have constant forced single pulls in nearly if not every single dungeon. It’s not hard to see it’s gotten streamlined over the years and especially in EW. I mean we can even just look at healers, where they lost all multiple dots and dps spells.

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I get it now, and I agree with you. That having been said, I think SE was just going with the flow on this one. Players prefer streamlined dungeons. That's why the meta is to pull wall to wall. While I prefer exploratory instances, no one runs them that way. When was the last time you saw a tank clearing all the rooms in Satasha? I honestly queued unsynced for that dungeon just so I could see what it had to offer besides the straight path that everyone takes. While I don't like the current dungeon design, I understand it. Players want wall to wall pulls, and SE delivered with halls and walls. At this rate, they'll eventually do away with dungeons and turn everything into a trial because that's effectively how players want to run dungeons now: Pull all the packs to the wall and take them down in seconds before unlocking the boss fight, where all the time is being spent.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean this can go both ways. I could ask where is the simplification and streamlining going to end? The fact is it hasnt, its gotten worse and worse each expansion, and somehow this is okay.

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Yeah, I think that's a completely separate issue from the streamlining that you pointed out. Streamlining didn't lower the challenge; it just made it easier for players to do wall to wall pulling, which seems to be what the overwhelming majority of high level players prefer. One thing I like about the leveling roulette is that I periodically queue into low level instances where the tanks have not yet been trained to run through the dungeon at breakneck speed without ever stopping unless they're forced to do so. I don't think those runs are any more challenging than the later streamlined instances.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Here we have a patch intended to last us four months and unless you're attempting Dragonsong, none of that content will take more than a week. Even if you casually farmed Endsinger, it would still only take a few weeks. Everything else is one and done story content. Which is far from a bad thing. In fact, I welcome it. However, once you've completed each quest, there's nothing else. So we're taking breaks for 2-3 months at a time. I don't necessarily want FFXIV to demand my attention every waking second like some MMOs do but I'd like to more than a week's worth of content. It continues to baffle me why they delay the relic for so damn long when it's the ideal grind content to keep people occupied. Granted, longevity as a whole has been something FFXIV struggles with badly.

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The patch is not intended to last month four months. There's a widely referenced Yoshi-P Q&A where a player asked how he was expected to keep his motivation up between content droughts. Yoshi-P's reponse was to play another game for a couple of months and then come back to FFXIV for the next content drop. SE isn't Blizzard. They don't introduce a bunch of busy work into the game to artificially extend its longevity. Once you've exhausted the content, you're encouraged to do something else and come back later. I personally think it's better that way.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The issue with this design philosophy is they simply don't make enough content to sustain it. Look at the upcoming 6.1. Here we have a patch intended to last us four months and unless you're attempting Dragonsong, none of that content will take more than a week. Even if you casually farmed Endsinger, it would still only take a few weeks. Everything else is one and done story content. Which is far from a bad thing. In fact, I welcome it. However, once you've completed each quest, there's nothing else. So we're taking breaks for 2-3 months at a time. I don't necessarily want FFXIV to demand my attention every waking second like some MMOs do but I'd like to more than a week's worth of content. It continues to baffle me why they delay the relic for so damn long when it's the ideal grind content to keep people occupied. Granted, longevity as a whole has been something FFXIV struggles with badly.

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It's not intended to last 4 months. It's the content we're getting and then four months later we'll get more. We can make it last a week or whatever amount of time we want. There are players in this game who could make that content last the entire time. I'm not one of them. I tend to be a content piranha for what I enjoy. Then I go back to an old goal or whatever.

We also don't have all the details about the longevity of all planned content. We don't know that the Omega series or Tataru's line won't be intended to provide some sort of reward we work toward. And they're making changes to try to make PvP rewards more accessible. That's never been my content but it's still content for players. And some players finish relic steps on what, day one, day two? There is absolutely no way SE could ever make enough content for players who consume it like that. And their design has never been to do so. We partake of what we want. We find goals or rewards we want to work towards. And sometimes we take a break here and there or spend some nights on something else.

It boils down to if the majority finds it fun or not, if you make normal content require pinpoint precision or it's over you'll surely appeal to the hardcore crowd, at the cost of the game becoming unsustainable in the long run because those kind of players are the minority.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I get it now, and I agree with you. That having been said, I think SE was just going with the flow on this one. Players prefer streamlined dungeons. That's why the meta is to pull wall to wall. While I prefer exploratory instances, no one runs them that way. When was the last time you saw a tank clearing all the rooms in Satasha? I honestly queued unsynced for that dungeon just so I could see what it had to offer besides the straight path that everyone takes. While I don't like the current dungeon design, I understand it. Players want wall to wall pulls, and SE delivered with halls and walls. At this rate, they'll eventually do away with dungeons and turn everything into a trial because that's effectively how players want to run dungeons now: Pull all the packs to the wall and take them down in seconds before unlocking the boss fight, where all the time is being spent.


Yeah, I think that's a completely separate issue from the streamlining that you pointed out. Streamlining didn't lower the challenge; it just made it easier for players to do wall to wall pulling, which seems to be what the overwhelming majority of high level players prefer. One thing I like about the leveling roulette is that I periodically queue into low level instances where the tanks have not yet been trained to run through the dungeon at breakneck speed without ever stopping unless they're forced to do so. I don't think those runs are any more challenging than the later streamlined instances.

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The streamlining is all about time spent doing each piece of content. I come from the days when raiding meant spending hours on trash to maybe get to fight a boss, so when my friends who went through the same experience told me about XIV and how it had improved, I was very happy. We still catch glimpses of those days in places like Bozja and Eureka, but overall it's very satisfying to go through more segmented content than try to burn through it all in a day. The game feels less like a job, which is great when you have a real one. :p I disagree with the idea that the game is getting too easy. I think some just miss those bigger time investments.

in the snow and the fight with zeno's was the only hard part of the game *chuckles* 2 stupid fun msq harder and more fun than 99% of the game

I think that the real issue is "Difficulty curve is too flat." or "Synced Content is made irrelevant." I don't think that anyone would disagree that it would be nice to have synced content closer to the way it was intended, where you actually have to do mechanisms and can't just face roll through it. Something that is even a little bit engaging.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

I think that the real issue is "Difficulty curve is too flat." or "Synced Content is made irrelevant." I don't think that anyone would disagree that it would be nice to have synced content closer to the way it was intended, where you actually have to do mechanisms and can't just face roll through it. Something that is even a little bit engaging.

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I don't much care for the difficulty curve arguments, but I'd be 100% on board with item level sync being stricter.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

I think that the real issue is "Difficulty curve is too flat." or "Synced Content is made irrelevant." I don't think that anyone would disagree that it would be nice to have synced content closer to the way it was intended, where you actually have to do mechanisms and can't just face roll through it. Something that is even a little bit engaging.

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Even this is by design, though. We're not face rolling those things when they drop in the ilevel available. Things get easier over time because ilevel increases. But this is necessary. Take something like Shinryu. That was a pretty big bottleneck on drop. I know it took me a couple of PUGs to get it. My first group just ran out of time. It was rough on healers in the gear available. I finished it, got my gear, then ran it constantly to learn it and to be a solid healer helping people get through. At first, I saw people drop constantly when they got it. But over time we stopped seeing that as more made it through, got the gear, found it easier after that, groups wiped less, and people stayed. If our ilevel didn't allow things to get easier over time, we'd remain stuck on these bottlenecks and players would either leave or call for nerfs. There were calls for nerfs on Shinryu that eventually died out as more people were able to get through. It's not a perfect system, but it is functional for the intention.