SE: Please tone it down a hair

To be more specific, it's some of the newspaper article authors for the Lodestone that tend to use sentences that have nearly 7 words in a row (many of which I'm not familiar with) that all start with the letter P or something. XD Next sentence - same thing. Over and over for the whole paragraph. It almost ends up a tongue-twister. (I have no problem looking up words -- in fact, I do whenever I see one I don't know.) But those can be hard to understand without reading over 3 times. lol A little too flowery and poetic for my tastes.

But I LOVE the text in-game. :3 It's great! I do understand if some people have trouble with it though, so I wouldn't mind seeing it adjusted a bit, as long as it keeps the same flavour it has now.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Still, I was always under the impression that the point of telling a story was reaching the widest audience possible to convey your message to, which was why Shakespeare used the language he did in his works, and why they have stood the test of time.

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This is a very nice point you brought up. The reality is that this is not always the case. Some story tellers tell stories in a way that only a certain audience would understand. Carring little for the widest audience, but more for a specific audience.

For example, a lot of poetry can only be understood if you are of the right mindset (or drunk). Many of the older songs with their hidden meanings are fully understood by some and completely incomprehensible by many others. A popular example is 'American Pie', where there are still many debates on what he is trying to say.

(This differs from Bob Dylan where they just don't understand what he's saying ^.^;;; )

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

This is a very nice point you brought up. The reality is that this is not always the case. Some story tellers tell stories in a way that only a certain audience would understand. Carring little for the widest audience, but more for a specific audience.

For example, a lot of poetry can only be understood if you are of the right mindset (or drunk). Many of the older songs with their hidden meanings are fully understood by some and completely incomprehensible by many others. A popular example is 'American Pie', where there are still many debates on what he is trying to say.

(This differs from Bob Dylan where they just don't understand what he's saying ^.^;;; )

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Which is why those poets never gain a very large following, which I'm fairly sure SE intends to do...someday.

Frankly I really enjoy the writing depth of this game...being a writer and poet myself...I find the writing really refreshing...albeit a little cryptic at times...

Please stop whining if you don't understand basic English...maybe you need to read more...what's it they say these days? Oh yes...yes foreigners speak and write better American English...then Americans.

really? i mean really? this is a problem now?
english isnt even my native language and i can follow and enjoy every conversation ingame without any problems (safe for the pirate talk maybe but that doesnt mean i dislike it)

i dont want to point fingers or anything but it would be a shame if they end up duming it down to a generic niveu.

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Originally Posted by Agoven

Frankly I really enjoy the writing depth of this game...being a writer and poet myself...I find the writing really refreshing...albeit a little cryptic at times...

Please stop whining if you don't understand basic English...maybe you need to read more...what's it they say these days? Oh yes...yes foreigners speak and write better American English...then Americans.

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If for no other reason than I don't want people like this to continue playing, I hope they dumb it down to the most ridiculous 1337 speak they possibly can. The very last thing this game needs is more idiots like this talking down to and lecturing people on language when they log onto the forums and into the game.

(Could you be more condescending, really?)

While the detail the writers and localization team put into the game is one of the things I love most about this game... I admit, I do tend to just skip and TLDR it in the Journal when I have to talk to an NPC with more apostrophes than letters in his dialog.

I'm entitled to understand the English of the game!!!

Jokes aside, I think the style of writing used in this game is really nice.

People need to stop dumbing down our language. It's embarrassing listening to my international friends joke about how our language is turning into a joke.

If you're that bothered not understand one or two words, then maybe you need to take a look at yourself (I mean seriously??) :S

I'm not denying that I haven't run into a bunch of words I've never read before, but I reread the sentence and pick it up..

The only time I've had trouble was the pirate dialogue in Limsa Lominsa.. and that was pretty fun to decode (^^)b


First it's dumbing down the gameplay.. now it's language? What's next?

I think some are confused or is it just me I don't think ppl have a problem with the writing i think ppl have a problem when a npc talks to you for 7 paragraphs about how 3 dodo's attacked her and she wants you to kill them.

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IMO...

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There, shortened 95% of the posts in this topic. This one included.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

There, shortened 95% of the posts in this topic. This one included.

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SE should hire you as editor to the writing team

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

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IMO...

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There, shortened 95% of the posts in this topic. This one included.

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Fuuuuuuuuuny, but so true...

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

There, shortened 95% of the posts in this topic. This one included.

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IMO...

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There we just shorted the forums by 95% lol

I'm italian and I'm studying foreign languages (English and Spanish) at a local University. I can say with complete honesty that I consider myself skilled enough when it comes to the English language. Enough to hold a proper conversation with anyone about quite a wide array of subjects, at least. And yes, I did read Shakespeare.
Now in XIV I really appreciate the use of the English language, as it really helps me in developing my language skills further.
Still I do find it a bit overwhelming at times, and that doesn't help the flow of the game at all. Having to stop reading and reach for the dictionary is no fun when all I want is to accept a simple secondary quest and move on.
All the different accents being used are a great help to me too, but as someone said before, they tend to become too thick sometimes.

And I agree with the extreme verbosity and length of NPC's monologues too, they simply talk too much and give us too much information in too little space. Maybe they could consider books or a new "Lore section" somewhere in the game, I don't know.

This game is localized in four languages if I remember correctly (I am still wondering why Spanish is not one of them though), and none of them is my native language.
What I'd like is a slight toning down in the "fancy talking" department. It is indeed a great thing when learning is fun, but this is still a game and a MMORPG too.
I mean, there must be a way to retain the exquisite dialogues without trying too hard and making the majority of the playerbase just spam the Enter key.

Well if the writing gets dumbed down there goes any incentive for me to do the quests that have crappy rewards.

/sigh

Another issue is that a lot of the Lore is being lost.

Given the nature of the game being an MMO, its fair to say players may take breaks from the game depending on real life matters. Someone who takes a break will just forget much of the lore. In that regard it would be appropriate for a lot of the Lore to be immortalised in in game books or a lore section as the above poster points out.

A lot of the writing is going to waste in unrepeatable dialogs (well except the Primal guy he just wont go away lol) in which case it will be forgotten (and the Journal only contains brief summaries).

From an immersion perspective, I would rather find out about the Lore in part from conversations but also from stumbling across inscriptions on landmarks, monuments, books, items etc. A solution would be to strip down the conversations and plant the info elsewhere.

Perhaps expanding/reevaluating the concept of the Adventurers Journal is a way to go - it should start off blank and fills in with mountains of text and pictures as you progress/adventure in the game. Categories could include the obvious: factions, npcs, places, beastiary. And the journal should look like a book not just a menu^^

That way Lore buffs can have their fill and people who just want to fight on can go through the bare minimum.

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<(^-^)< ^(~-~)^ >(^.^)> Yadda yadda yadda I'm a jerk who talks too much and demotes everyone who doesn't agree with me to uneducated dolt status who should keep their traps shut in my presence.


Every single Eagleheart post ever. There aren't that many yet each one is so full of self loving misplaced superiority that is makes me upturn my hands in mock surprise at every turn. At Rokien makes me laugh every once in awhile.

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I have only spoken my opinion on your behavior. Apparently, it rings true.

The dialogues are fine as they are. If you don't want to read them, don't. If you have troubles understanding them, work on your English skills.

I'm neither a native English speaker nor am I studying English at the college/university.
So why am I not having problems understanding the dialogues (or monologues)? Except maybe the Limsan ones?

Too many people just blank out the moment they stumble upon an uncommon word (instead of looking it up for example) and just end up skipping the whole text, then complaining the text is too hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by Altanas

Another issue is that a lot of the Lore is being lost.

Given the nature of the game being an MMO, its fair to say players may take breaks from the game depending on real life matters. Someone who takes a break will just forget much of the lore. In that regard it would be appropriate for a lot of the Lore to be immortalised in in game books or a lore section as the above poster points out.

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There's a webstie that someone made just for that, but I've lost the link to it. ; ;

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

The dialogues are fine as they are. If you don't want to read them, don't. If you have troubles understanding them, work on your English skills.

I'm neither a native English speaker nor am I studying English at the college/university.
So why am I not having problems understanding the dialogues (or monologues)? Except maybe the Limsan ones?

Too many people just blank out the moment they stumble upon an uncommon word (instead of looking it up for example) and just end up skipping the whole text, then complaining the text is too hard to understand.

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It's not the reading comprehension issue... (Well, maybe it is for some... I can't speak for everyone)
For me it's when speeches go on for too long... you lose interest...
Every single NPC in the game seems to ramble on forever, taking way longer than needed to make their point...
It detracts from pulling people in to the character development that is going on
Does the game need long speeches? Yes... but from EVERYONE? no

And yes... that's just my opinion and is in no way fact...

When I started to play FFXIV I thought it would be a good idea to play it in English so monster names etc. would be the same. I gave up after I arrived in Limsa (yep, after ~5 min into the game) because I couldn't understand a word.
The "pirate speech" was so over the top that I couldn't understand a word since I'm not a native English speaker.
Since then I've seen lots of texts from Quests or NPCs in wikis or on the forums and it's mostly so epic-mysterious-old-high class-over the top that I'm forced to have a dictionary beside me to find out what the text is about.

For people who learned English well enough to hold everyday conversations this kind of speech is horrible.
But playing in my native language now, I enjoy that the NPCs speak differently from normal speech..so doing away with it would be wrong too.
Just..dumb it down a little bit please..?:D

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Explain to me how is it that those paragraphs of text are relevant to your character

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No wonder you have problems with the dialog in this game or dialog in general lol. People really don't understand the concept of flavor text? Especially to flesh out certain things?

tl;dr version of the people in support of making one-line dialogs:

Exposition is a lost art in western gaming and has to go!

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Originally Posted by Elexia

No wonder you have problems with the dialog in this game or dialog in general lol. People really don't understand the concept of flavor text? Especially to flesh out certain things?

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You can count the number of good novels most people here have read on one hand.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

You can count the number of good novels most people here have read on one hand.

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That's being generous honestly :\ lol

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Originally Posted by Elexia

No wonder you have problems with the dialog in this game or dialog in general lol. People really don't understand the concept of flavor text? Especially to flesh out certain things?

tl;dr version of the people in support of making one-line dialogs:

Exposition is a lost art in western gaming and has to go!

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Too much exposition can completely derail a good story.... Every good author knows that the reader doesn't need an information dump every 2 pages
You have to find balance. FFVII was full of exposition, Every time you got to a city, the party would sit down and discuss the plot thus far...
Honestly though... most of what is being said is no exposition. It's taking way too long to get to the point... like all NPC's have "Beataroundthebush-itis"

Rydin you're feeing a troll. Don't bother responding to that one.

She's already decided your a moron and will just make fun of you for 4 pages.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Rydin you're feeing a troll. Don't bother responding to that one.

She's already decided your a moron and will just make fun of you for 4 pages.

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^ This makes you seem more like a troll to be honest. Seriously, it seems like people are more in favor of dialog that goes like:

"I'm the bad guy, I'm going to drop Dalamund of Eorzea. Why? ...Cuz I'm the bad guy?"

Rather than him going into detail of his motivations..aka exposition because it would be "to the point."

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Originally Posted by Elexia

No wonder you have problems with the dialog in this game or dialog in general lol. People really don't understand the concept of flavor text? Especially to flesh out certain things?

tl;dr version of the people in support of making one-line dialogs:

Exposition is a lost art in western gaming and has to go!

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I get that you're trying to show how smart you are throughout this topic, but really for someone who's accusing others of having poor reading skills you're clearly not even trying to understand the complaints.

People understand the concept of "flavor text," "immersion," or whatever else you want to call the way the NPCs talk. The problems are that a) it is over the top, and b) it is entirely too much. I don't have a problem with the pirates in Limsa talking like pirates. I do have a problem with it being so over the top that it comes off more as corny or silly than interesting. This also makes it hard to get interested in the story line.

As for the second problem, it goes on too long. This is a problem because it makes people lose interest in what's going on. Since you turned this into a "westernerz iz dumb" thing, I will use FFXI as an example. I enjoyed going around the cities and talking to the different NPCs and getting a feel for where I was and the different environments. In XIV I don't. I would like to, but I don't because I know I will end up trapped in text about someone's lost cat or practical joke addiction.

Skillfull writting isn't just about trying to make use of extremely complicated sentence structure or use of words that may impress some readers. It is also important to make them care and keep them interested. This game doesn't do that for most people. Sure some great novels are increadibly difficult to read, but there are others that are just as good with extremely basic writting... one example that comes to mind is Ernest Hemingway.

tl;dr - I agree with topic and I think most players would. Elexia is just being snooty.

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Originally Posted by IStolzI

I get that you're trying to show how smart you are throughout this topic, but really for someone who's accusing others of having poor reading skills you're clearly not even trying to understand the complaints.

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People say "it takes too long to get to the point", yet you can guarantee people would complain if NPCs said much of nothing at all either.

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tl;dr - I agree with topic and I think most players would.

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Considering most MMOs barely have a storyline nowadays? Obviously most would agree with less story and more loot. People didn't even care for when Bioware spoonfed you story through voice acting, people still complain "there's too much x."

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The problems are that a) it is over the top

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Fantasy game.

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b) it is entirely too much

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Subjective. Some people like a good read.

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Since you turned this into a "westernerz iz dumb" thing

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This is what you stated, don't inject anything into my post. If you've played a lot of western games lately, you'd realize very quickly exposition has become a lost art in a lot of the writing of the games, this has nothing to do with intelligence.

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Skillfull writting isn't just about trying to make use of extremely complicated sentence structure or use of words that may impress some readers.

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It's about fleshing out your characters. If your character is complex (hence people are on the fence if for example the Vans are truly good or evil) it can't be conveyed properly by "getting to the point in one sentence."

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Originally Posted by Rydin

It's not the reading comprehension issue... (Well, maybe it is for some... I can't speak for everyone)
For me it's when speeches go on for too long... you lose interest...

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Well, the OP was speaking specifically about SE using "complicated words", which clearly speaks of a comprehension problem to me. Comprehension seems to be a bigger problem for people of all languages nowadays, maybe because the media are more interested in a dumb population which is easier to steer, which results in a general "dumb down" for everyone, even people who were capable of more at the start.

May I remind you of the trouble people had with the word "cumulative" used in the legacy campaign description? That's one of the examples...

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Every single NPC in the game seems to ramble on forever, taking way longer than needed to make their point...
It detracts from pulling people in to the character development that is going on
Does the game need long speeches? Yes... but from EVERYONE? no

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I don't mind long dialogues and I don't think they are boring. The problem is, people want to rush things to get to the next piece of content, and having to click through the text is an annoyance to them - so they want to dumb it down. Or at least that's what it looks like to me.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Seriously, it seems like people are more in favor of dialog that goes like:

"I'm the bad guy, I'm going to drop Dalamund of Eorzea. Why? ...Cuz I'm the bad guy?"

Rather than him going into detail of his motivations..aka exposition because it would be "to the point."

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sort of like how when people are asked to list their favorite FF villain, it's almost always kefka... even though, honestly, he's about as deep as a kiddie pool.

(sephiroth was pretty dumb, too. jussayin'. come at me, fanboys!)

FFXII is another great example of how the writing can be good an not over complicated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLBGbUGryRE

Ivalice is such a great place.

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Originally Posted by Kaizlu

FFXII is another great example of how the writing can be good an not over complicated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLBGbUGryRE

Ivalice is such a great place.

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Only thing I didn't like was the Narration of Marquis Ondore... I felt like Ben Stein was telling the story

This thread is 24 pages long and has trended all week. It seems to be a subject so worthy of attention that it become evident the writing should definitively be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

This thread is 24 pages long and has trended all week. It seems to be a subject so worthy of attention that it become evident the writing should definitively be addressed.

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Or, that it shouldn't.


o.o


Both conclusions can be inferred. That the thread has been trending all week is a remarkably vague premise on which to assert that anything 'needs to be addressed'.

Edit: Oddly enough, upon reading my post, I thought that perhaps some elaboration may be in order, to better explain precisely why I said what I said.

However, in the spirit of the thread, and for the sake of modern Spartan wit, I will refrain from any further elaboration on the point, how I arrived at the conclusion, why I think that way, how irrelevant the entire concept is, and why Nael von Darnus is such an awesome villain.

Representin'.

There seems to be a great deal of misinterpretation in this thread. (Or purposeful over exaggeration to swing favor but still) I suppose this could have been prevented with a more direct opening statement.

No one is suggested we downgrade writing style and lexicon to under achieving 7th grade level essay assignments. Only that they reel in the AMOUNT of text each NPC seems just so eager to spew forth any time someone happens to give them the least bit of attention.

Length =/= Quality

We can keep all the great (terrible) puns, the accents, and the unique FFXIV flavor that is ever present in the conversations with the soulless digital automations. We just don't need a 13 page sermon on why we should be doing something as mundane as collecting some coral from the beach.

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Originally Posted by fusional

(sephiroth was pretty dumb, too. jussayin'. come at me, fanboys!)

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Sephiroth was as one-dimensional as a piece of cardboard... But lots of current players started with FF7 and thus rely on nostalgia goggles to dictate how good/bad the game was.

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Originally Posted by Colino

Sephiroth was as one-dimensional as a piece of cardboard... But lots of current players started with FF7 and thus rely on nostalgia goggles to dictate how good/bad the game was.

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It's not Sephiroth that makes sephiroth so important though... as a character, his dialogue was pretty subpar... It was the mystery around him... and the way everyone regarded him as such a hero.. so you had no idea if he was a villain or what

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Originally Posted by Rjain

Have you ever read Shakespeare?

There are reasons Shakespeare remains one of the most popular and enjoyed play-writes in history. Oh yeah, and there's pages upon pages of the same difficult English. But yet, people continue to enjoy it. A surprise! Those people must enjoy reading and/or stories and/or dramatic performances. Much like what the dialogue is aimed at in this game. People who enjoy reading and/or stories and/or dramatic performances. If you as a player do not fit into having the amount of patience required to read, then you may simply skip the stories and do well not to complain.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Shakespeare is interesting because every single sentence has a specific intent. I can't say the same for FFXIV, but I wish I could, maybe someday I will. In XIV right now you've got entirely useless sentences that could easily be condensed and still have the same effect. Talking just to talk is pointless, talking with meaning isn't.

BTW I read everything, I love stories, but even I can recognize there's more then a few times in XIV I want the NPC to get to the point already and quit boring me. If I was hanging on to every word I would not have this perception. Something about the writing can be improved. We are not talking about taking away anything but IMPROVING things.

Criticism of this nature is a good thing.

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Cendres, you nailed it. It's interesting Rjain chose Shakespeare, because in Shakespeare's own words "Brevity is the soul of wit". He essentially trimmed the fat and removed the superfluous, which made for an overall superior story, and that's essential to why his works were so great and people still enjoy them.

As another wise man elaborated (Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw!),

"Shakespeare wrote that 'brevity is the soul of wit'. He did not then add 'unless you're writing a webcomic'. It applies to everything, and don't tell me you're arrogant enough to claim to know better than Shakespeare."

Neither did Shakespeare say "unless you're writing dialog for an MMO." Rjain could not have hurt their argument more by bringing up Shakespeare, as it's essentially the polar opposite of FFXIV's writing style and further illustrates the issue many people have with it.

I can read it pretty easy /shrug