Mentors...please!

@ Soran Riegel Hmm so what i see is : my opinion is right and yours wrong and if you disagree with me you are bad person etc. Thats not really a discussion.
You just ignor every argument that dont fit your theory. Also you dont explain your viewpoint at all. You just attack all mentors at once and try to etablish the term mentor=toxic. And try every person that disagree with you to make a defender of bad behavior. Thats rude polemical. You try to establish victims and offender with nothing in between.
On the topic itself toxic behavior and mentor status is just a corelation not a causality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banriikku

@ Soran Riegel Hmm so what i see is : my opinion is right and yours wrong and if you disagree with me you are bad person etc. Thats not really a discussion.
You just ignor every argument that dont fit your theory. Also you dont explain your viewpoint at all. You just attack all mentors at once and try to etablish the term mentor=toxic. And try every person that disagree with you to make a defender of bad behavior. Thats rude polemical. You try to establish victims and offender with nothing in between.
On the topic itself toxic behavior and mentor status is just a corelation not a causality.

---

I beg you, look at the beginning of this discussion. It’s very strange to see how people joining it do not bother reading the thread. If you want to have all the information, please read. No one here says that mentors are bad just because they are mentors. We are talking about people who break the rules, insult other players, do not help, but continue to be mentors somehow.

Quote:

---

What is a Mentor
Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers. To facilitate their assistance, mentors will gain access to a special chat channel as well as a means to easily register for duties and trials with new players.
As a mentor you are expected to actively perform the following:
1. Provide gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players.
2. Be an exemplar for player etiquette.
3. Invite new adventurers to the Novice Network and answer their queries in the chat channel.

---

Also we are talking here about a possible changes of the mentor's system. I do not know why most of people began to get so nervous and replace the original thread meaning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RajNish

I do not know why most of people began to get so nervous and replace the original thread meaning.

---

I have no other assumptions than this: the topic of "toxic mentors" for some strange reason is very relevant and painful for them.
Therefore, they make a great effort to neutralize this fact, question it, and shift the focus to the speaker's personality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

I have no other assumptions than this: the topic of "toxic mentors" for some strange reason is very relevant and painful for them.
Therefore, they make a great effort to neutralize this fact, question it, and shift the focus to the speaker's personality.

---

You've not proven anything as fact nor provided any evidence as such. Just because you say it is a fact does not make it so. All that's been referenced as evidence is a few threads by a few people that claim there is a toxic mentor problem, yet in these same threads when you look through the pages of posts, there are more individuals responding that no there isn't a bigger problem and if someone is being toxic, report them. It gets annoying seeing these "I ran into a mean mentor. We need to abolish the whole mentor system!" threads popping up from time to time.

A mentor chose to help.
I do not excuse any kind of insulting or any other way of rulebreaking or bad behavior. Such players need to be reported.
The claim many mentor player are toxic has still no prove and no explanation.
I am for a change but my concern is the commendation system and that stupid crown symbol (should be a watering can instead) and not the demand for punishment.
Policing the mentor system more in a way that seems like punishment for no reason is unhelpfull and destructive.
We need more enforcement of the rules but this is not mentor specific.
A toxic player is toxic because of his behavior not the mentor crown.

The claim the mentor specific rewards are the reason for MANY player to participate in the mentor system is not understandable.

Mentor Rewards:
The Title Mentor 50 Duyts (Mentor Roulette)
The Title : Mentor of Mentors 500 Dutys (Mentor Roulette)
Item Hat 200 Dutys
Item Monocle 1000 Dutys (Mentor Roulette)
The Mount Astrope 2000 Dutys (Mentor Roulette)

The mount is well earned with 2000 dutys. I fail to see what rewards are handed out that justify that statement.


I cant see what part of the mentor system encourages poor behavior.
The demand a mentor has to help if not he/she/it should be punished is unfounded.
Putting up some extrem requirements for mentors is absolut nonsense. But i agree the requirement shouldn't be just recommendations rather "kill every Extrem encounter 10 times".


My wishes are:
Change the crown to a watering can
Change the recommendation system or take it off from the mentor system and find a new way to evaluate the qualification for the mentorstatus.
NO Mounts/Minions or other fancy stuff as rewards.

My last wish is more off topic but we need somekind of general chat so that the socialization and the not game related talk goes there and the NN is just a help chat for sprouts, returning players and such.

But i am absolutely against these "you have to" demands. A mentor helps voluntary.
The argument "there are rulebreaking mentors" - do you have reported them ? If so then what is your problem ? They are still playing ? Then Se has decided that it was not enough to bann them. You are still unhappy but cant do anything ? Welcome my Friend you took the red pill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thamorian

You've not proven anything as fact nor provided any evidence as such.

---

If you are not GM then I am not required to provide any "special evidence" for you. They are provided for GM regularly in my reports (and my Free Company mates).

The fact that, unfortunately, often these reports do not lead to a ban of toxic mentors has already been discussed here.
It was also said here that many toxic mentors, well aware that police measures can be applied to them, are able to avoid direct violations and to veiled an abuze.
It was also said here that, unfortunately, the "add to the blacklist" system does not guarantee that you will not get into the party with these toxic mentors.
Also here and in a similar discussion on Reddit there are many people who confirm the negative experience of communicating with "mentors."

However, if everything has already been said, why do you continue to devalue the problem and experience of all these people and insist on methods that do not work?

If they were working, it is logical to assume that it would not be necessary to question the entire "mentoring system" as a whole.

GM replied to one of my reports that I can write about the problem on forum. So, as you can see, this is exhaustive evidence that I have the right to discuss the problem and how to solve it on the SE forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banriikku

A toxic player is toxic because of his behavior not the mentor crown.

---

Let me supplement you substantially.
I 've already talked here about the impact of symbols of authority - such as awards, crown, riding animals, title - on the behavior of players with unstable behavior. Awards provoke them not to help, but to reach, and in these conditions assistance to beginners is perceived as an unfortunate obstacle. Authority is quite capable of changing behavior, and the most striking proof of this is the Stanford prison experiment.

At the same time, I have repeatedly faced a situation where the group refused to kick a toxic mentor without supporting the request. And that 's the other side of the problem: the gaming community is so tolerant of toxicity that it stopped noticing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RajNish

So, as you can see, this is exhaustive evidence that I have the right to discuss the problem and how to solve it on the SE forums.

---

Interesting and indicative of the problem itself:
you have no right to discuss the issue and talk about your experience until you provide evidence.
No one guarantees that this evidence will be sufficient, lol.

This is the case when I talk about depreciation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banriikku

My wishes are:
Change the crown to a watering can
Change the recommendation system or take it off from the mentor system and find a new way to evaluate the qualification for the mentorstatus.
NO Mounts/Minions or other fancy stuff as rewards.

---

Here I absolutely agree with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

Interesting and indicative of the problem itself:
you have no right to discuss the issue and talk about your experience until you provide evidence.
No one guarantees that this evidence will be sufficient, lol.

This is the case when I talk about depreciation.

---

According to GM's message, in response to my report, I have every right to discuss the problem. In this case, the GM's words have the greatest confidence for me, in contrast to the opinions of users, who do not remember or do not clearly understand the user agreement.

Its like you two only respect each other and each other only, no wonder no one else likes talking about this with you. Also funny how your evidence photo just dissapeared...
Also we also have every right from the GM to talk in here, not only you two, if you refuse to listen thats not on us, but you cant tell us to move to somewhere else, youre not GM's or own this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoom

Its like you two only respect each other and each other only, no wonder no one else likes talking about this with you. Also funny how your evidence photo just dissapeared...

---

Have you heard of the non-disclosure rule? You can believe me or not. But, GM's advice is sufficient reason for me. If you still have any other constructive suggestions, welcome.

@ Soran Riegel
So you made a assumption based on your opinion and others dont followed them and then you are assumed others are the problem ? I hope i missunderstand you.
And one single case proves nothing. And we dont know the circumstances so we dont even know if this case is applicable to our question.

You have your opinion and wanted said opinion be heard. And wanted just people to agree. I disagree with most of your statements because you cant/dont want to? give a reasoning behind your statements and especially wont give evidence. I would say lets see if the next Liveletter brings some news regarding this matter. Wish you a good day/afternoon/night and much fun in the game.
If you wish to discuss and stop playing the eccho-chamber-game people in this forum will happly read your statements and reasoning / evidence.
@Neoom yup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoom

Its like you two only respect each other and each other only, no wonder no one else likes talking about this with you. Also funny how your evidence photo just dissapeared...
Also we also have every right from the GM to talk in here, not only you two, if you refuse to listen thats not on us, but you cant tell us to move to somewhere else, youre not GM's or own this thread.

---

Many thanks. Please continue in the same vein.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Banriikku

And one single case proves nothing. And we dont know the circumstances so we dont even know if this case is applicable to our question.

---

This is not one case. These are a few cases and several reports. I am grateful for your suggestions for system. They are of the greatest importance. All bickering will remain nothing more than a scandal on the market square. You can do it or not, it's your choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

Many thanks. Please continue in the same vein.

---

That's off topic and offers nothing to the of what we are chatting here, can we keep the chat back in the topic here?

So far, of the constructive proposals that have been made here, the most constructive (and easily realized) is to deprive mentors of all privileges and awards and to make help to newbies truly selfless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

So far, of the constructive proposals that have been made here, the most constructive (and easily realized) is to deprive mentors of all privileges and awards and to make help to newbies truly selfless.

---

Well, I guess we have to get rid of novice network then, since that's seen by many as a reward for being a mentor. And any special mentor icon has to go. So basically, to make mentors work in xiv involves removing the entire feature. Then people can just ask anyone for help like normal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

So far, of the constructive proposals that have been made here, the most constructive (and easily realized) is to deprive mentors of all privileges and awards and to make help to newbies truly selfless.

---

And we have stated that giving rewards is not the one making people toxic, toxic people are toxic rewarded or not. So punishing good mentors for few bad apples(A saying not a measurement, please dont take this out of context again) is also really wrong. As people have taken out of the statics of the rewards earned, how many mentors actually OWN the items/mount you get? If the case was over 50% then yes it would prove reward = bad, but its somewhere around 1% or below meaning its not whats making mentors toxic so taking rewards away wont fix your problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, I guess we have to get rid of novice network then, since that's seen by many as a reward for being a mentor. And any special mentor icon has to go. So basically, to make mentors work in xiv involves removing the entire feature. Then people can just ask anyone for help like normal.

---

Maybe someone else will make a rational offer. It would be really nice to hear him. For example, somehow reorganize the "add to blacklist" system to avoid getting into roulettes with these people (I know a game in which this is well implemented - Star Wars: The Old Republic).
Or introduce a point system to evaluate mentors.
In short, to offer what would actually work.

But the hardest thing right now is that the gaming community is passive and taking toxicity as the norm. The toxicity of ordinary players was mentioned here. Yes, alas, it 's true. And something needs to be done about that, too. But for now we can start with mentors, as they, taking on this role, signed up to the rules of the game and have privileges from their status.

We can also start working from the point were good mentors are not punished in the progress. But to make mentor system work, the whole thing would need a massive rework and different requirements to work, since hitting 1500comms is easy and fast. So unless your only idea is to banish the whole system your idea isn't rational either. Obviously we need a way to get the bad mentors out, without punishing the good ones in the progress, since they are doing their job so it would be unfair.
And to be real best option is to remove the commendation requirement first, replace it with something that sees what knowledge you have of the fights/dungeons. Since helping is more important than the numbers of comms you have that can only be from the fact you healed decently, but didn't help talk or do anything beside that = doesn't prove anything on your mentor ability.
Hell even a quiz of some kind could work, maybe with right questions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

Maybe someone else will make a rational offer. It would be really nice to hear him. For example, somehow reorganize the "add to blacklist" system to avoid getting into roulettes with these people (I know a game in which this is well implemented - Star Wars: The Old Republic).
Or introduce a point system to evaluate mentors.
In short, to offer what would actually work.

But the hardest thing right now is that the gaming community is passive and taking toxicity as the norm. The toxicity of ordinary players was mentioned here. Yes, alas, it 's true. And something needs to be done about that, too. But for now we can start with mentors, as they, taking on this role, signed up to the rules of the game and have privileges from their status.

---

A grading system with points is a bad idea, that simply allows new players to either hold mentors hostage with the threat of bad ratings, or people will just misuse them, or it'll be like commendations and worthless.


As for the other, you could then have issues where groups of people blacklist players vindictively. This again, would be misused and cause issues. You could effectively lock someone out of duty finder with that.

Plus, people farmed commendations by using friends. What makes think they wouldn't do the same with a grading point system. Get friends to make new chars, queue up for obscure duty, get high ratings. Repeat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

A grading system with points is a bad idea, that simply allows new players to either hold mentors hostage with the threat of bad ratings, or people will just misuse them, or it'll be like commendations and worthless.

---

Reasonable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

As for the other, you could then have issues where groups of people blacklist players vindictively. This again, would be misused and cause issues. You could effectively lock someone out of duty finder with that.

---

Um, you probably misunderstood me. "Blacklist" exists to ensure that personally you no longer get into dungeons with this person.
At the same time, we did not have any problems with the recruitment of the group.
It is a simple and effective method of preventing conflicts and creating a comfortable environment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

So far, of the constructive proposals that have been made here, the most constructive (and easily realized) is to deprive mentors of all privileges and awards and to make help to newbies truly selfless.

---

Yeah, at this point I am convinced that this entire thread was created just for trolling purposes. Constructive comments have been made, yet the few here still believe that mentors are only out for achievements/mount --> my post about the low Astrope ownership was more or less ignored / not attempted to be debated. The few here still seem to believe that all mentors are bad, yet there are so many mentors out there (albeit with their crowns hidden) that are in fact helping newcomers and returners a LOT. There is no merit to become a mentor just for the sake of being an a*hat to others. And if there are mentors that DO, then that's an individual - the player's - problem. A system change won't change the behavior of players. People will be people. Good or bad. Helpful or spiteful. Either deal with it or become a mentor yourself and be the "exemplar for player etiquette". You'll notice soon enough that it isn't as easy like all those "mentor-bashers" seem to claim, especially on Chaos DC where many languages and cultures are clashing together which, by the way, many people have already pointed out here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

Reasonable.


Um, you probably misunderstood me. "Blacklist" exists to ensure that personally you no longer get into dungeons with this person.
At the same time, we did not have any problems with the recruitment of the group.
It is a simple and effective method of preventing conflicts and creating a comfortable environment.

---

No, what I'm saying, is you could have an instance where a player angers someone, and if that someone has a big enough group of frienda/is a streamer, their followers could all add this one person to their blacklist. If that's a big enough chunk of people on a single datacenter, it could make said players queues much longer, as not only can the system not match said player into a party with people who blacklisted them, but it only takes 1 person per party to lock them out. If there are a bunch of people queueing with them on their list, and they all get matched into different groups, he can't match into any of them.

The player didn't even have to be toxic in this instance. It could have just been a slight disagreement.


And you may say "well that can't happen, people aren't that vindictive" or "the system wouldn't be able to do that" but that's exactly what would happen. See people trying to queue on the JP datacenter with only English selected and not understanding why they are waiting multiple hours for story dungeon queues to pop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sesera

We aren't talking about the good mentors, proudly wearing their crown to notify anyone they are here to help but the bad ones.

---

But as I said before even when talking about the bad ones, we cant make a decision that could possibly punish the good ones, so yes we do have to talk about good ones in the mind of what to change in the system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sesera

Nobody here believes mentors suddenly become monster the moment they put their crown on and should be hunted and burned.

We aren't talking about the good mentors, proudly wearing their crown to notify anyone they are here to help but the bad ones.

I mean it's not hard to see that...

---

So basically what you're saying here is that you acknowledge that not all mentors are bad, yet despite there only being some bad apples, you want to deprive all mentors not only of their icon but also of any reward they may or may not achieve simply to teach the few a lesson in morality?

Honestly, this topic is full of a bunch of semi-intellectuals using big words in an attempt to make their vain arguments sound better than the numerous counterarguments. Why would you punish everyone over a few? Or do you just say that because whenever you see a mentor you assume the worst? Mentors at this point are like the boogeyman. They not only ate your homework but also kicked your dog and insulted your maternal parental figure just because they wear a crown and because they can.

The combat mentor roulette is made so that it can fill queues for unpopular content. Yes, SE prompts you with a warning that you need to adhere to some common sense rules like treat others as you would be treated, but mentors are still people. You can't insult a customer service representative just because they can't fight back. Are they held to a higher standard? I would think so since they agreed to the rules, but everyone has their bad days both mentors and sprouts alike. If anyone hurls abusive language, then by all means report them. It's very simple. Report those that are giving mentors a bad name and they will be punished. If they're not punished? Maybe you got triggered over a situation that wasn't as bad as you thought it was and should get over it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No, what I'm saying, is you could have an instance where a player angers someone, and if that someone has a big enough group of frienda/is a streamer, their followers could all add this one person to their blacklist. If that's a big enough chunk of people on a single datacenter, it could make said players queues much longer, as not only can the system not match said player into a party with people who blacklisted them, but it only takes 1 person per party to lock them out. If there are a bunch of people queueing with them on their list, and they all get matched into different groups, he can't match into any of them.

---

If I get you right, no, it doesn't work.
1. Adding a player to the blacklist by you personally will not affect his connection to your current group.
2. Given the number of players on global servers, this situation is just impossible. To somehow influence a player 's search for a group, thousands and thousands of people need to add his to the blacklist. Honestly, I 'm not sure Satan is playing the FFXIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

As for the other, you could then have issues where groups of people blacklist players vindictively. This again, would be misused and cause issues. You could effectively lock someone out of duty finder with that.

---

I don`t quite understand what the problem is? "Add to the blacklist" does not mark an ordinary player or mentor with some bad symbol. It 's not a black mark, is it? This feature simply allows you not to meet (anywhere) the person or people who are rude, toxic, don 't read chat or even just unpleasant. What happens if two sides that didn 't like each other don 't meet? The conflict will not happen. As the Soran Rigel put it, this system has been really working in Star Wars: The Old Republic for many years.

@Sesera, you have now moved to the category of "bad" in this thread, too. Welcome to the team. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zazay

Constructive comments have been made, yet the few here still believe that mentors are only out for achievements/mount --> my post about the low Astrope ownership was more or less ignored / not attempted to be debated.

---

And eating babies, ofc! Some of these "constructive" comments have even been deleted by moderators. And these were not my or Soran’s comments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zazay

The few here still seem to believe that all mentors are bad, yet there are so many mentors out there (albeit with their crowns hidden) that are in fact helping newcomers and returners a LOT.

---

I have not yet received an answer to my question, which I have repeated here many times. If these dedicated people do not receive their reward, do not farm the mount and hide the crown, why do they need rewards and crowns?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zazay

People will be people. Good or bad. Helpful or spiteful. Either deal with it or become a mentor yourself and be the "exemplar for player etiquette". You'll notice soon enough that it isn't as easy like all those "mentor-bashers" seem to claim, especially on Chaos DC where many languages and cultures are clashing together which, by the way, many people have already pointed out here.

---

Regarding cultural differences… It’s like for people who working in international companies. Company rules first. So, SE rules first for FF 14. And, let’s be honest, whatever your culture is, words like “Idiots” and so on always have an offensive meaning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No, what I'm saying, is you could have an instance where a player angers someone, and if that someone has a big enough group of frienda/is a streamer, their followers could all add this one person to their blacklist.

---

Is this real? And after that, someone tells me about a friendly community? Okay. I do not think that all people in the data center can add someone to the BL. The player base is very huge, and not everyone is watching streamers.

You don't need everyone, just a decent amount to make it harder to get matched. Only one person in a 24man for instance.


No I don't think it would ever be everyone on a datacenter. I don't even think it would happen to a degree. But I am pointing out the flaws in your ideas. Someone has to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

But I am pointing out the flaws in your ideas. Someone has to.

---

This system, which has been working successfully since 2011, may have some shortcomings, but personally it was very easy and convenient for me not to face those I do not want to see.
Would you really give up that opportunity? Honest answer, please.

And... Indeed, the situation with the hypothetical mass addition to the blacklist you are trying to describe is slightly unlike the "friendly gaming community."
It 's more like a mass... bullying?
Or it 's the language barrier that 's to blame. Perhaps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

This system, which has been working successfully since 2011, may have some shortcomings, but personally it was very easy and convenient for me not to face those I do not want to see.
Would you really give up that opportunity? Honest answer, please.

And... Indeed, the situation with the hypothetical mass addition to the blacklist you are trying to describe is slightly unlike the "friendly gaming community."
Or it 's the language barrier that 's to blame. Perhaps.

---

I don't currently have anyone on my blacklist other than content sellers, and they don't run content anyway.

Even if I did blacklist someone for a reason, seeing them doesn't bother me, and honestly, I'd likely forget why I added them to the list a few weeks later anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I don't currently have anyone on my blacklist other than content sellers, and they don't run content anyway.

Even if I did blacklist someone for a reason, seeing them doesn't bother me, and honestly, I'd likely forget why I added them to the list a few weeks later anyway.

---

Thanks for the answer.
One of the advantages of this system is that you may add (or may not add) others to the blacklist.
According to your desire.
However, the blacklist system in FFXIV is not functional now, so I can understand you.

I know a lot of people who actively used the black list in SWTOR. Why not present this opportunity in FFXIV?

Nevertheless, I asked a little bit about the other. Not about how you feel about the blacklist at the moment, but about whether you would have given up the feature if you had been granted it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RajNish

And eating babies, ofc! Some of these "constructive" comments have even been deleted by moderators. And these were not my or Soran’s comments.

---

So sorry for off topic I know you guys hate it, but there are no deleted messages in this treat, since when deleted it still shows in the logs. Only 1 (ONE) message is deleted, amd most likely was poster themselves for their own reason (double post or a post with almost same answer as another one of their message)So I want to see where you got the idea stuff is being deleted?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

Thanks for the answer.
One of the advantages of this system is that you may add (or may not add) others to the blacklist.
According to your desire.
However, the blacklist system in FFXIV is not functional now, so I can understand you.

I know a lot of people who actively used the black list in SWTOR. Why not present this opportunity in FFXIV?

Nevertheless, I asked a little bit about the other. Not about how you feel about the blacklist at the moment, but about whether you would have given up the feature if you had been granted it.

---

Sure, its not a feature I would really need. I can't think of more than 1 instance where I'd never want to encounter a player again, and that was literal years ago. In fact, I haven't seen said player in years either so its not an issue. I can't say I've ever even run into a player I had blacklisted back when I did use the function. So it wouldn't effect me at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoom

So sorry for off topic I know you guys hate it, but there are no deleted messages in this treat

---

I 'm afraid they are, and you 're wrong.
You probably need screenshots of deleted messages as evidence, hmm?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Sure, its not a feature I would really need. I can't think of more than 1 instance where I'd never want to encounter a player again, and that was literal years ago. In fact, I haven't seen said player in years either so its not an issue. I can't say I've ever even run into a player I had blacklisted back when I did use the function. So it wouldn't effect me at all.

---

I understood you.
You seem to be a very lucky and optimistic person. ;)
Much are lucky less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoranRigel

I 'm afraid they are, and you 're wrong.
You probably need screenshots of deleted messages as evidence, hmm?

---

Every deleted message shows as deleted message with no text inside. Unless you know more of deleted messages than me and can prove me wrong.(Saying that all I know usually deleted messages leave a ''mark'' in the log) I just checked the whole log, but saw nothing deleted (did find one message deleted by op, reason not defined)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoom

Every deleted message shows as deleted message with no text inside. Unless you know more of deleted messages than me and can prove me wrong.(Saying that all I know usually deleted messages leave a ''mark'' in the log) I just checked the whole log, but saw nothing deleted (did find one message deleted by op, reason not defined)

---

Ah, I understood. Did you think the deleted message was yours? Nope.