[Lighthouse Spoilers] Can we please stop with the stupid fetch quests?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At times, this involves a slow burn - but it usually results in character development. Sometimes the payoff isn't immediately apparent, then a few patches or even expansions later we see the fruits of the labour. Much like how a seemingly simple fetch quest resulted in Meffrid becoming a more prominent character later on in FFXIV's lifespan.

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No just...no. Let me lay this out right now. Coming into importance later doesn't even matter. What matters is the impression it gives off now. And right now it's a waste of time and effort in terms of design. Also EXPANSIONS later? Are you kidding me? Oh man, I can't wait to have the game take months upon months even years to come up with a way to make this quest that contributed nothing to the ivalice storyline to actually mean something.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At times, this involves a slow burn - but it usually results in character development. Sometimes the payoff isn't immediately apparent, then a few patches or even expansions later we see the fruits of the labour. Much like how a seemingly simple fetch quest resulted in Meffrid becoming a more prominent character later on in FFXIV's lifespan.

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The thing is, that particular fetch quest already had payoff because it contributed to world-building right there and then, between the state of the Ala Mhigan refugees and the dynamics with the Elementals in Gridania. Plot-wise you got immediate pay-off because it let you proceed with the Little Ala Mhigo quest which tied into the Ascians' story because they tried to make them summon Rhalgr. Wilred became relevant within that selfsame "expansion".

This particular fetch-quest immediately contributes to the so called "crafter side quest related to the raid" and within the built-in setup of "well we're busy investigating, come back later" could've just as easily been introduced as a post-raid side-quest like the Bacon Bread delivery quest that was built on it. Like, right now, my complaint isn't even so much the quest itself existing, but it being part of the main story chain for this raid. A lot less people would've complained or even made aware of it if they had moved it from the middle of the quest line to the end, and have it be a requirement to the new delivery side-quest, which I can only imagine would get additions after the next raid. Otherwise why even bother at all? Just for a one time award of clusters and crystals?

SE really, really needs to learn the value of brevity. I've lost count of how many quests were ruined by their obsession with using ten words when one would suffice, and the slow-paced cutscenes that run emotes and dialogue sequentially, rather than concurrently, don't remotely help, either. Ridorana is the latest example of a storyline component that I simply skipped by the end of it, because it took so damned long to wind up that I didn't really care anymore.

Note, by the way, that I've absolutely no problem with a slow wind-up if the plot and writing is worth the wait. My favourite RPG of all time is Planescape: Torment, which I believe is longer than War and Peace were all the dialogue printed out. But FFXIV's plot lines, outside of the main scenario, really don't live up to the hype, in my estimation. Either improve the writing to the point where the slow wind-up actually feels worth it, or hire someone who can take over cutscene and quest pacing duties.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At times, this involves a slow burn - but it usually results in character development.

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Meffrid unlike Drest was important because we not only helped him but because he was from a country that would be the focus of an expansion later. (And like others said we saw hands on how some of them are suffering thanks to the elementals) We dont know if Dalmasca or Ivalice will even become important later, at least until now raids never had become the focus point of an expansion. And as long as we are not truly helping that guy I see no relevance to this. And the name of a wine will 100% not play some big important part later. (And we can go around and speculate that every small information would become important later thus if you have enough points a few of them might be right later, but that does not change the opinion for people now. I mean the Titan questline had a use directly and people still dont like it)

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

SE really, really needs to learn the value of brevity. I've lost count of how many quests were ruined by their obsession with using ten words when one would suffice, and the slow-paced cutscenes that run emotes and dialogue sequentially, rather than concurrently, don't remotely help, either. Ridorana is the latest example of a storyline component that I simply skipped by the end of it, because it took so damned long to wind up that I didn't really care anymore.

Note, by the way, that I've absolutely no problem with a slow wind-up if the plot and writing is worth the wait. My favourite RPG of all time is Planescape: Torment, which I believe is longer than War and Peace were all the dialogue printed out. But FFXIV's plot lines, outside of the main scenario, really don't live up to the hype, in my estimation. Either improve the writing to the point where the slow wind-up actually feels worth it, or hire someone who can take over cutscene and quest pacing duties.

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Ye It's also a bit ironic that in the Namazu quests and in the same ridorana questlines they have a character using elaborated words and then have the other NPCs asking to be more brief

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Originally Posted by AmurT

Ramza being a racist, whiny little git didn't help my mood either, I literally skip every cutscene/dialogue with him now. All in all, a disgusting quest chain where I'm not even allowed to talk back to an NPC after they insulted me.

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Huh? Get a grip. It's a fantasy setting. The races in it are completely different species. He's not some dumb SJW, he hasn't undergone "muh diversity is our strength" training, probably because he has a functioning brain and a healthy in-group preference. If you can't handle "waaaaaaaaaaycism" (basically nothing but mild name-calling) in a Japanese RPG, you're probably better off seeking professional help.

Also, are we forgetting he's an impulsive teenager?

No wonder we end up with wet noodle garbage like Lyse.

I mean, you're free to write a dialogue in your head where your character dishes out "sassy" replies to all the NPCs.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

*snip*

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It's setting lore mediated through a quest. Honestly, it's not a big deal. I mean you'll gladly go do 1000 fetch quests for leveling or beast tribes, but this one SINGLE quest chain for a raid broke the camel's back? Come off it!

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Huh?

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Only we're obviously meant to be antagonized by his behavior which is also called out numerous times in-game. They acknowledge the terms he uses to call the Moogles and the former bandits are derogatory terms. His father reminds him that their troupe accepts people regardless of race. Not a single NPC (or PC going by the built-in reactions) approves of his behavior. So people being upset by it is actually the intended reaction by the writing team.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Only we're obviously meant to be antagonized by his behavior which is also called out numerous times in-game. They acknowledge the terms he uses to call the Moogles and the former bandits are derogatory terms. His father reminds him that their troupe accepts people regardless of race. Not a single NPC (or PC going by the built-in reactions) approves of his behavior. So people being upset by it is actually the intended reaction by the writing team, though I'm not sure they thought they went that far.

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SE's intention is for people to be so triggered by it that they skip dialogue options because they can't abide "muh waycism" (again: nothing but name-calling, which the Bangaa don't even really seem bothered by) in a fantasy setting? I don't think they have any such expectation, other than to express the opinions of the NPCs around him. It's not like you're given the option to comment on it. What if your character agrees with him? Not like their Japanese players are going to start clutching their pearls over it, either.

The setting has far more virulent examples of what might be termed actual racism in it. The fact that the virtue signal echo chamber around him - really, just the miqo'te reporter, the moogles (for obvious reasons) and his father - don't like it doesn't suggest much else other than they dislike it. If people are "upset" by it, they're losing touch with reality.

The moogle in question is also pretty damn rude and barges in, expecting to just be allowed to join. Talk about entitlement!

The kid isn't obliged to agree with his father's take on it.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

If people are "upset" by it, they're losing touch with reality.

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Or live in a racist society in reality and don't want to put up with it in their escapist hobbies.

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The kid isn't obliged to agree with his father's take on it.

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No, but that doesn't make him any less a racist git for it. Every last narrative beat reaffirms it.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Or live in a racist society in reality and don't want to put up with it in their escapist hobbies.

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Doubt the lore writers particularly care about that, since it's mostly a hobgoblin in the mind of very idiotic people in the West, where "racism" is probably at its lowest levels anywhere in the world, the ranting proclamations of disingenuous brainwashers ensconced in academia masquerading as "professors" and MSM mindbenders notwithstanding. Japanese players certainly don't have these hang ups. Just rather indoctrinated Europeans and North Americans. But by all means, if one is triggered by it, they're free to skip through it... along with every other "triggering" aspect likely to arise in a fantasy game. I just find it childish. I'm glad some devs are starting to just not care.

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No, but that doesn't make him any less a racist git for it. Every last narrative beat reaffirms it.

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Eh, your opinion, little more.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Doubt the lore writers particularly care about that, since it's mostly a hobgoblin in the mind of very idiotic people in the West, where "racism" is probably at its lowest levels anywhere in the world, the ranting proclamations of disingenuous brainwashers ensconced in academia masquerading as "professors" and MSM mindbenders notwithstanding. Japanese players certainly don't have these hang ups. Just rather indoctrinated Europeans and North Americans. But by all means, if one is triggered by it, they're free to skip through it... along with every other "triggering" aspect likely to arise in a fantasy game. I just find it childish. I'm glad some devs are starting to just not care.


Eh, your opinion, little more.

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Because xenophobia and racism neeeever exist in Japan. Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by KyokuhoKensaki

Because xenophobia and racism neeeever exist in Japan. Oh wait.

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Oh I don't deny it - rather, that was my point: what SJWs glibly refer to as waaaaaaaaaaaycism and muh xenophobia, are trivial non-issues to a Japanese audience, who don't suffer from the same mental condition spreading in the West, radiating outwards from charlatan "academics" and a complicit and corrupt media establishment. Specifically, using words to mock a fictional race, doesn't cause them to have conniptions. I think the devs would be rather amused to find some people just click past this stuff. How would they play a game like Witcher 3 without need of a therapist afterwards?

The game, like many RPGs, offers plenty of atrocities one could more understandably find troubling, though still not to the point of getting worked up over them. A teenage boy using "derogatory" terms to brash visitors doesn't count amongst them.

What many western babies will find amusing is that devs out of Eastern Europe and Asia aren't as "woke" on these issues as they are.

Here's a Japanese IP that might better suit the offence prone:

https://www.sanrio.com/

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Originally Posted by Lauront

blah blah

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We may be talking about video game characters here, but insulting someone based on their race is still very much racism, regardless of what childish terms you picked up off reddit to call it, and players don't have to be at ease with it. Personally, it left me feeling uncomfortable - which may have been the writers' intentions - and I can see why it might draw unpleasant parallels to real life for many people.

The reason the Japanese don't "suffer from the same mental condition", as you so eloquently put it, is because Japan is a largely homogeneous country, with non-Japanese making up less than 5% of the population. Racism isn't an issue they're often confronted with, compared to more diverse countries, meaning general awareness of it is far lower.

http://robbcorbett.com/wp-content/up...-a-success.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Huh? Get a grip. It's a fantasy setting. The races in it are completely different species. He's not some dumb SJW, he hasn't undergone "muh diversity is our strength" training, probably because he has a functioning brain and a healthy in-group preference. If you can't handle "waaaaaaaaaaycism" (basically nothing but mild name-calling) in a Japanese RPG, you're probably better off seeking professional help.

Also, are we forgetting he's an impulsive teenager?

No wonder we end up with wet noodle garbage like Lyse.

I mean, you're free to write a dialogue in your head where your character dishes out "sassy" replies to all the NPCs.

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Say what you will about racism - that's in the eye of the beholder. I think Ramza is clearly xenophobic / racist, but if you want to childishly make fun of people concerned about these things, whatever. The bigger sin from a gameplay / storyline standpoint is that he's boring. He's one-dimensional, nothing he says is interesting, he does nothing but worsen problems. And no, 'impulsive teenager' isn't a sufficient excuse: a bad character is a bad character. It's not like his being impulsive and obnoxious serves some higher purpose in regards to the plot, a la the new Star Wars movies with Kylo Ren.

Also, if you seriously think this guy has a functioning brain, you're the one that needs help, not AmurT. Ramza would get fired by any employer I know, would get excluded from any social group, purely because he's obnoxious. I don't care what labels you attach to it in addition to that: he's obnoxious. And nobody likes obnoxious people.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's setting lore mediated through a quest. Honestly, it's not a big deal. I mean you'll gladly go do 1000 fetch quests for leveling or beast tribes, but this one SINGLE quest chain for a raid broke the camel's back? Come off it!

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There's a difference between a purely mindless fetch quest that's the entire goal of a piece of content, and a mindless fetch quest that might actually contain story elements and is part of a forced quest chain that everyone will do. That story piece is the worst part, because it pushes people to actually pay attention to the drivel that SE wrote to accompany the useless quest. If everyone knew they could safely abandon the cutscenes and just move to the end without missing anything, it would have been far less hated, I suspect.

I have a lot of patience for fetch quests in general. I'm the type of person who does every optional quest on the map because I enjoy getting more lore bits about the npcs, the region, ect.
This one in particular was poorly done in my opinion. It feels like a sidequest stuck into the raid storyline and hurts the pacing. References are all well and good but there's no reason this couldn't have been placed after unlocking the raid or as a separate chain. Would give players something to do while waiting in queue if it was a separate chain as well.

itt: people don't realize devs are playing up Ramza to be such an asshat to emphasize the difference between him and og Ramza and him and the moderate Garleans he travels with. He's the ye olde equivalent of an edgy teenager in a youtube comments section. You're supposed to not like how he's acting.


@ topic -
I would have been fine with it being a sidequest within the raid similar to how the bacon bread sidequest was. I already knew both Gegeruju and Hancock are swindlers, Drest is from a foreign country, and that Shamani is an honest person. All it did was waste some time before I queued.

Ramza is just plain rude and it doesn't matter who the person is. It's like he only has a semblance of respect for his father, anyone else around him is a useless dimwit. Even to us, the person who saved the life of his father, he says something like "And here I thought you'd actually contribute something." Excuse me you little ****? I swear, if this were SWTOR, he would have been force choked at least twice by now. And then, after the whole infuriating Quest line, where we have to shut up and stand in the back, as he pukes insults out of his face hole, we get taken advantage of by a random NPC, who couldn't get off his lazy butt, to actually do something nice for his wife. That's imo the biggest problem with the fetch quest. It's a Quest, right after a lengthy cutscene, where one of the main characters does nothing but push our buttons. Heck, had I stopped right then and there, slept on it, then played the Wine Quest the next day, I probably wouldn't have been nearly as annoyed by it.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

itt: people don't realize devs are playing up Ramza to be such an asshat to emphasize the difference between him and og Ramza and him and the moderate Garleans he travels with. He's the ye olde equivalent of an edgy teenager in a youtube comments section. You're supposed to not like how he's acting.

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If so, then it's clumsily done. This is the type of difference best illustrated subtly, over time, not with the narrative equivalent of a giant billboard smacking you upside the head. His age is also a bad thing to bring up here: SE need not do anything to highlight that teenagers are pains in the ass. From a broader 'different types of Garlean' standpoint, they needed to use another adult, or someone of a calmer temperament. Ramza is just a poorly-done character, full stop.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Huh? Get a grip. It's a fantasy setting. The races in it are completely different species. He's not some dumb SJW, he hasn't undergone "muh diversity is our strength" training, probably because he has a functioning brain and a healthy in-group preference. If you can't handle "waaaaaaaaaaycism" (basically nothing but mild name-calling) in a Japanese RPG, you're probably better off seeking professional help.

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Can we tone down the personal insults? Those are not helping at all and wont make us take posts seriously...

He is racist and even the ingame characters point it out. He is rude and even his father calls him out of this. He also cant be that young anymore, since he is in charge of this if his father is not around, so he at least must be near adulthood. Also look at his sister. Younger than him but at least she has some respect for other people. Something that he is missing quite a lot.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

itt: people don't realize devs are playing up Ramza to be such an asshat to emphasize the difference between him and og Ramza and him and the moderate Garleans he travels with. He's the ye olde equivalent of an edgy teenager in a youtube comments section. You're supposed to not like how he's acting.


@ topic -
I would have been fine with it being a sidequest within the raid similar to how the bacon bread sidequest was. I already knew both Gegeruju and Hancock are swindlers, Drest is from a foreign country, and that Shamani is an honest person. All it did was waste some time before I queued.

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Well imo they could have shown this change much better without making the real Ramza so extremely rude and unlikeable. It was quite clear that they are doing this so that we might notice it better but that does not make it better written. Honestly they only managed to not make me care of his fate. He is only a few steps behind Asahi for me. And him being such a annoying character really does not help with feeling for this group. My character is just with them to be able to see that Ivalice and not because of them. With other raids I at least cared for the team.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

If so, then it's clumsily done. This is the type of difference best illustrated subtly, over time, not with the narrative equivalent of a giant billboard smacking you upside the head. His age is also a bad thing to bring up here: SE need not do anything to highlight that teenagers are pains in the ass. From a broader 'different types of Garlean' standpoint, they needed to use another adult, or someone of a calmer temperament. Ramza is just a poorly-done character, full stop.

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Ramza's great. Characters such as him are incredibly popular within Japan - and even outside of it. Most of my favourite characters in RPG's are those with flaws...especially in Final Fantasy games. Yotsuyu. Seifer. Gabranth. Rufus. To name but a few. They're often far more interesting and memorable than characters that exist to tread on thin ice as to not offend anyone.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

If so, then it's clumsily done. This is the type of difference best illustrated subtly, over time, not with the narrative equivalent of a giant billboard smacking you upside the head. His age is also a bad thing to bring up here: SE need not do anything to highlight that teenagers are pains in the ass. From a broader 'different types of Garlean' standpoint, they needed to use another adult, or someone of a calmer temperament. Ramza is just a poorly-done character, full stop.

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I won’t disagree that it’s a bit clumsy at the moment but I’m pretty sure the biggest foil be old Ramza that’s possessing our Ramza. I wish it happened sooner so the story would get rolling faster, but I can see what they’re trying to do.

As for the calmer garleans, the father and alma (along with the rest of the trope) are all pretty mellow. That the father regularly shoots Ramza down when he goes on one of his tangents shows that the kids out of line.

Despite my distaste for pointless fetch quests, at least the one for unlocking Ridorana is short.

My biggest problem with Ramza is that at times he seemed so over the top rude just to make the point for us to notice, not to even mention other characters pointing that out.

And as for the fetch quest, I don't mind them in general if they make sense, but the illusion of choice was what annoyed me the most. Sure, it's not like any of the other dialogue options in the game change anything but a line or two, but at least you don't fail quests because of them? That and how the other guy in Wineport treats the WoL; I don't need or want my character to be praised and thanked and worshiped all the time, but considering we were pretty helpful even to him personally some time back, at least some basic courtesy would be nice.

I really need to bump this post.
Enough of filler quests.
And I wish they remove the old ones from ARR.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Ramza's great. Characters such as him are incredibly popular within Japan - and even outside of it. Most of my favourite characters in RPG's are those with flaws...especially in Final Fantasy games. Yotsuyu. Seifer. Gabranth. Rufus. To name but a few. They're often far more interesting and memorable than characters that exist to tread on thin ice as to not offend anyone.

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See the thing is. You know what else was popular in japan? Characters with the personality and likability of a cardboard box like Lightning. Yotsuyu was written better than Ramza. Seifer was honestly a terrible character in general. Gabranth was written better. So was Rufus. Ramza is just written poorly and it's becoming incredibly apparent you're willing to just forgive everything SE does instead of trying to accept someone might have a different viewpoint than you.

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Originally Posted by KyokuhoKensaki

See the thing is. You know what else was popular in japan? Characters with the personality and likability of a cardboard box like Lightning. Yotsuyu was written better than Ramza. Seifer was honestly a terrible character in general. Gabranth was written better. So was Rufus. Ramza is just written poorly and it's becoming incredibly apparent you're willing to just forgive everything SE does instead of trying to accept someone might have a different viewpoint than you.

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http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...82/861/e26.jpg

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Originally Posted by KyokuhoKensaki

See the thing is. You know what else was popular in japan? Characters with the personality and likability of a cardboard box like Lightning. Yotsuyu was written better than Ramza. Seifer was honestly a terrible character in general. Gabranth was written better. So was Rufus. Ramza is just written poorly and it's becoming incredibly apparent you're willing to just forgive everything SE does instead of trying to accept someone might have a different viewpoint than you.

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I mean, if you want to fool yourself into believing that I forgive everything that Square Enix does then you need only look at my signature to understand why that is an incorrect assumption...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Ramza's great. Characters such as him are incredibly popular within Japan - and even outside of it. Most of my favourite characters in RPG's are those with flaws...especially in Final Fantasy games. Yotsuyu. Seifer. Gabranth. Rufus. To name but a few. They're often far more interesting and memorable than characters that exist to tread on thin ice as to not offend anyone.

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I'm not familiar with Gabranth, but I am with Yotsuyu, Seifer, and Rufus. All three of them are vastly better-done than Ramza. Their stories are layered with emotional complexity; their behaviour is offensive, but it doesn't go out of its way to be offensive, if that makes sense. They're just who they are. Ramza throws it in our face too intentionally for it to be believable, and therein lies the problem: he's badly written. Unlike Yotsuyu, there's no emotional history giving extra weight to his behaviour; unlike Seifer, he doesn't have a clear competitive motivating factor (and no Edea, either); unlike Rufus, there's no immediately apparent 'so spoiled and rich he's lost sight of morals' component. Part of this isn't SE's fault, of course; as a side-story character he can't be as fleshed-out as these others. But that's all the more reason to not give him a type of behavioural pattern that demands some sort of narrative depth.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

I won’t disagree that it’s a bit clumsy at the moment but I’m pretty sure the biggest foil be old Ramza that’s possessing our Ramza. I wish it happened sooner so the story would get rolling faster, but I can see what they’re trying to do.

As for the calmer garleans, the father and alma (along with the rest of the trope) are all pretty mellow. That the father regularly shoots Ramza down when he goes on one of his tangents shows that the kids out of line.

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Quite possibly this is the direction it's going in. If so, it might work in hindsight. But it's the sort of mistake that movie series fall victim to all the time: they make a problematic entry that 'could be good' if a sequel fills in the gaps. Given that we won't see the gaps filled in for months, this isn't a great idea, and it's a shame, because an historical Ramza possessing young Ramza is a nice sort of twist in my mind. But by the time it's revealed, too many players will have been turned off to the character, killing off its effectiveness. Like I said before, brevity is key here. It would also help, of course, if other characters were deliberately noting a certain strangeness in young Ramza, rather than acting as if it's his normal personality.

A character isn't 'badly written' just because they're a bit impetuous.

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Originally Posted by KyokuhoKensaki

See the thing is. You know what else was popular in japan? Characters with the personality and likability of a cardboard box like Lightning. Yotsuyu was written better than Ramza. Seifer was honestly a terrible character in general. Gabranth was written better. So was Rufus. Ramza is just written poorly and it's becoming incredibly apparent you're willing to just forgive everything SE does instead of trying to accept someone might have a different viewpoint than you.

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They sure beat the pants out of some random auri female on the forum, that is for sure.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Can we tone down the personal insults? Those are not helping at all and wont make us take posts seriously...

He is racist and even the ingame characters point it out. He is rude and even his father calls him out of this. He also cant be that young anymore, since he is in charge of this if his father is not around, so he at least must be near adulthood. Also look at his sister. Younger than him but at least she has some respect for other people. Something that he is missing quite a lot.

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His sister doesn't say much of anything, tbh. She's just a timid girl. His father doesn't particularly impress me. You can keep repeating that Ramza "racist", like some Pavlovian dog whistle that is meant to throw me into a fit of disapproval and anger. I don't particularly care. I find the term useless, at best, malicious, at worst. This may be some great sin to you. It isn't to me. It's not out of the norm in the setting. In fact, his father's troupe is unusual for the fact that it seeks to take on members of all groups. This does not mean, however, that he somehow has to show respect for moogles or bangaa barging in to the ship, the former of which demanding membership. The only in-game characters throwing a fit about it are his father and the catgirl reporter, and for obvious reasons, the moogles.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I mean, if you want to fool yourself into believing that I forgive everything that Square Enix does then you need only look at my signature to understand why that is an incorrect assumption...

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Well seeing as you repeatedly said people who didn't suck up the quest and love the writing and "references" should just play other games. Yeah Im willing to hedge my bet on that assumption.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

A character isn't 'badly written' just because they're a bit impetuous.

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They can be if it's not properly executed.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I'm not familiar with Gabranth, but I am with Yotsuyu, Seifer, and Rufus.

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Actually, Yotsuyu had virtually none until SE sought to develop it further later. She was merely a cruel handmaiden of Zenos and there was no apparent reason for her extreme cruelty. It is only after her fall in Doma castle that they sought to embellish it. Ramza, for what it is worth, threw around a few words. She literally enslaved and tormented a nation, to a standard of cruelty unparalleled in the empire barring perhaps Zenos's own. I think she is a very well written character, but it took time to develop her to that point. Initially, many people saw the redemption arc at Doma castle as tacked on and as an example of bad story trajectory. I don't see how Ramza is badly written. Not everything has to be given an explicit reasoning for it. He could merely have observed beast races and came to divergent conclusions about them to his father. They are clearly going somewhere with his seemingly random change in disposition, though. However, he won't be playing as big a role in the story as Yotsuyu, so he won't receive as detailed a backstory.

I am surprised people aren't also raining down on that Sharlayan auri female for calling them "minor races". Not that it would make sense, either.

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Originally Posted by KyokuhoKensaki

Well seeing as you repeatedly said people who didn't suck up the quest and love the writing and "references" should just play other games. Yeah Im willing to hedge my bet on that assumption.

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I stand by those words. If people are getting up in arms over a fictional character then they should definitely reconsider the sort of games that they choose to play. Hydaelyn, as a setting, isn't a particularly pleasant place to live - all sorts of problems plague it and that is the appeal for a lot of players. It isn't to everyone's tastes but the developers have made it clear time and time again that they're not afraid to explore such themes and they do not pull any punches in the process.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I am surprised people aren't also raining down on that Sharlayan auri female for calling them "minor races". Not that it would make sense, either.

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Probs because minor is assumed to mean minority/fewer in population. Its not an insult nor was she saying with the intent to make it an insult. In contrast, "Molebat" and "Lizards" are meant to be derogatory, which is why Ramza gets the responses he does :3

Some of the new alliance raid quests were okay but that fetch quest for the wine for some dude's lady was beyond tedious, pointless and stupid and had NOTHING to do with the alliance raid itself. I literally facepalmed at the end of that fetch quest for the wine. So I basically wasted almost 20 mins of my time getting wine for some lazy *** npc for his anniversary or w/e? Thanks SE. Thanks for wasting my time and sub money for a pointless filler quest.

This reminded of the quests in ARR where everyone basically kept saying "You're too accomplished to be bothered with this, but I want you to do it anyway."

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Originally Posted by Lauront

His sister doesn't say much of anything, tbh. She's just a timid girl. His father doesn't particularly impress me. You can keep repeating that Ramza "racist", like some Pavlovian dog whistle that is meant to throw me into a fit of disapproval and anger. I don't particularly care. I find the term useless, at best, malicious, at worst. This may be some great sin to you. It isn't to me. It's not out of the norm in the setting. In fact, his father's troupe is unusual for the fact that it seeks to take on members of all groups. This does not mean, however, that he somehow has to show respect for moogles or bangaa barging in to the ship, the former of which demanding membership. The only in-game characters throwing a fit about it are his father and the catgirl reporter, and for obvious reasons, the moogles.

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Well racsim is never fine, even in a fictional setting and lets not forget that he is called out for that. By characters that dont know him but also by his family. (So everyone that is important in this plot) I dont care if you dont care that he is that way but this topic also started because you attacked someone that saw him as a racist. If you are fine with him that great, but others can have a problem with him and his character. And yes his fathers group is special thus why his own father points out that race and stuff should not stand against someone joining them.

Does he have to be friends with those people? No! But at least some ounce of respect should be paid. Especially since the Moogle did not even do something against him or his family. And he is not even just mean to moogles, he is totally harsh towards us after we save his father and he even takes his own sister down.