~Poll~ Longer fights <Do you want it?>

off-topic and inflammatory replies are just fine, but it's Rokien

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Originally Posted by Luxanna

off-topic and inflammatory replies are just fine, but it's Rokien

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I have less respect for people who run into any/all of his threads to just mock him and not even attempt to discuss the topic at hand.

At least Rokien plays his idea out instead of calling people names, it's absurd how large of a following has gathered to hate on a single user on the forums and instead of combating his ideas with your own you just spew vitrol. I don't always agree with the guy but he has every right to post on this forum that we do.

We need to start treating eachother with respect, it's something sorely lacking on the entire forums and people are all too quick to jump to insults and hyperbole when they don't agree with someone. If you don't agree with an idea you are free to tell us why you think it's a bad idea and why ____ is better.

Better yet tell us what you would do instead of saying "It's good right now guys" everyone should at least have something to add to the system wether it's a great idea or not. We are all here to discuss the game not post image macros and look like 4chan trolls.

What Jynx said.

People are being complete d*cks to him. As what the moderator said in the other thread, there is no constructive criticism in his threads, let alone ANYTHING constructive to the topic. They focus on getting as many likes as they can by making some smart comment like in every other Rokien thread.

I don't agree with Rokien all the time, but I don't treat him like trash and walk all over him. Grow the **** up people. Give something to the thread or don't reply. It's that freaking simple.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

What Jynx said.

People are being complete d*cks to him. As what the moderator said in the other thread, there is no constructive criticism in his threads, let alone ANYTHING constructive to the topic. They focus on getting as many likes as they can by making some smart comment like in every other Rokien thread.

I don't agree with Rokien all the time, but I don't treat him like trash and walk all over him. Grow the **** up people. Give something to the thread or don't reply. It's that freaking simple.

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creating constructive debates is one thing, over flooding the forum with topics which have been discussed time and time again in better threads is not necessary. Look at his thread history, look at the repetition he build for himself. They're always the same paranoia discussions most of the time which is what people is getting tired of.

want longer fights? go level a gladiator or paladin, lol.

but i do agree, some parties back when i was leveling up would just have a mob down before more than 3 people got to it.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

So, I'm wondering if people would like longer fights. The reason why I bring this up is, the fights are REALLY short in this game. I'm leveling up thm and the only spells I use are; Thunder, Thundara, which makes the mobs go down. There really isn't any reason for me to use the other spells/abilities or combos(can you even get combos off?). Which will bring me to my next point, longer fights will teach you how to use those other abilities. If things go wrong, you will also learn what to do in a panic situation for ifrit,moogle, and other big fights. The longer fights would have adjusted exp for em as well. So, the whole "Get less exp" argument is out of the window as well.

So, would you guys like longer fights that are more engaging?

Vote NO here!

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THM is easy to level, no point in using that as a comparison, try glad or arch instead.

not quiet sure what all the drama is about, but I would like reply to the original question. Simple Answer, YES. As far as slowing down lvling, soo what? even if they slowed it down by 50% anyone can solo to 50 in a week at least , and thats with 4-6 hour days. this game is missing the presenence of one simple factor that keeps gamers playing, that factor is, a sense of acomplisment. The only real sense of acomplishment right is building a kick ass set of gear. Wich dosent realy apply considering that if a player soo wished, they could buy their gil and then buy their gear. Some of the droped gear is nice but the rest is kinda just a trophey imo. I have no inventory space for tropheys much less time to attain them. I am too busy trying to build doh/dol jobs in order to build my own gear without spending every gil i save. YAWN!!! I will say, I am looking foward to (Extreme) Ifrit, just hope there is no "speed run" reward. Wana give hard core players an insentive? Just make the fight a challange for even the best geared , talented players and call it good. by adding a speed run mode, they take away from their own ability to tune a fight to epic standards. Make Ifrit hit like CC, regen twice as fast as hard mode, and take half the damage, hell if they wanted to realy fuck with the hard core players , se could make Ifrit invunerable to magic damage , LMFAO! I can hear the crys now. Let the ; ; begin...

IMO longer fights doesn't fit with the chain system.

I'm pretty sure that what was intended is fighting multiple ennemie one after another.

Also there are some ennemies that are longer to kill already.

I agree with longer fights, they are very fast now. Partying at strongholds, aoeing, easy chains. Not for me..

But its not like i want super long fights. Maybe something inbetween.

Personaly i would like party battles being longer then solo battles. There should be time for strategical moves, positioning etc.

Im waiting idle to see how combat will change in 2.0, cant wait to see how it turns out.
Maybe not much will change, i would be rather disapointed.

People have treated Rokien with respect before, discussed his thread properly and all that, but everyone have their limit on how much stupidity they can take from a single person, especially since Rokien doesnt take no for an answer, if he wish others would treat him with respect, start treating others opinion with respect as well, Rokien may not have used foul language but to be respectful means knowing when to step down when clearly you are in the wrong. It just looked pathetic defending a clearly crap idea that everyone is against.

This thread is good but very biased, i wouldnt go further as everyone has stated waht i needed to say in pages before.

You are looking into it as a THM that is an OP class. Melee classes have it much slower and making it slower you are making mrd,pug,arch,gla and lnc classes a chore to level from 1-50.

What they gotta do is either nerf THM/BLM spells damage or buff melee dmg to give them the same killing speed.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

People have treated Rokien with respect before, discussed his thread properly and all that, but everyone have their limit on how much stupidity they can take from a single person, especially since Rokien doesnt take no for an answer, if he wish others would treat him with respect, start treating others opinion with respect as well, Rokien may not have used foul language but to be respectful means knowing when to step down when clearly you are in the wrong. It just looked pathetic defending a clearly crap idea that everyone is against.

This thread is good but very biased, i wouldn't go further as everyone has stated what i needed to say in pages before.

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Respect is simply the ability to accept someone as a whole no matter of there individual status.

here's an example of respect. you see crippled person and apparently they've dropped there crutch, you attempt to pick it up for this person but they tell you they'll get it themselves in a cranky tone. (picking it up anyway maybe nice, but its disrespectful) or (telling them fine get it your self you cripple is rude and disrespectful). there are only two ways to respect this person. to leave them be, or to assist them in acquiring there crutch. ex. Hold them while they pick it up, so the person doesn't fall.

As for the speed of battle, adding in tier 2 mobs in the mixing pot wouldn't be such a bad idea, you could also add chain stepping. the battle starts off slow but the more chains you get the quicker the mobs go down, this would put a stop to the killing 8 mobs in 3 seconds..which is totally retarded.

I'm not mocking Rokien. I'm actually proud of him posting a good topic. this is an actual discussion
instead of a post of his opinion and people flame him. I don't ever agree with him but there is always
a first.

I would like to see some longer fights outside of primals and NM's. nothing over 3 minutes but a good
60-180 second fight with a party from like beastmen mobs would be welcomed. I hate that Strongholds
have so many mobs that it lags the zone. would be better with fewer mobs that were harder and that had to be
killed to advance in the zone. the imperial SH is really disapointing that you can run through to the end and not fight.
however I wouldn't want to fight the way it is now. Mob horde zones suck and are too laggy.

wow rokien, an actually non trolling post i can actually agree with! A bit longer fights be kinda nice, but i ope SE doesnt nerf everyones dmg output to make the fights longer c.c.

instead of nerfing mage dmg output, changing cast times, extending recast etc. why not just change how aoe works for mages. example each tier only hits a certain number of mobs ie: fire=1mob fira=2 mob, firaga=3 mob, firaja=4mob etc. this will still allow mages to be great and effective but not super beast like they are now.

Yes thier still will be an aoe fest but a bit toned down which is the start to fixing the problem. Hopefully in 2.0 it will be fixed because jobs like samauri and dancer will be ineffective since they cant build any tp by the time a mob or mobs are dead.

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Originally Posted by Deathmask

You are looking into it as a THM that is an OP class. Melee classes have it much slower and making it slower you are making mrd,pug,arch,gla and lnc classes a chore to level from 1-50.

What they gotta do is either nerf THM/BLM spells damage or buff melee dmg to give them the same killing speed.

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You're missing something with your adjustment. a THM/BLM uses MP which when they run out they have to restore. Also spells at lv 50 cost a lot of MP so if you aren't careful you'll find yourself without any MP to perform actions. Melee on the otherhand have the ability to continuously gain TP to perform abilities as well as combos which save them from using TP. a Mages combo only adds an extra effect to the ability it does nothing to save them MP. The balance is there people just prefer to use THM/BLM because of the pretty numbers but in a fight that may go on for quite a while you may find that the THM/BLM will tucker out after a set amount of time.

Though perhaps to make things interesting some new bosses which could be introduced are perhaps ones that have AOE mp drain or counter mp drain when to many spells are cast on them at once. So if you have 4 THM/BLM in the party and they all cast a spell in a 30 second segment then the last one to cast the spell will be aspired and lose some MP. This isn't to say that having 4 THM/BLM would now be useless but it would just mean that said mages would need to stagger their abilities and find other ways to be useful during combat such as 3 THM/BLM target the boss while one waits for adds or perhaps they go on THM and support the WHM while also keeping an eye out for adds.

Adding the same killing speed will only cause melee to become overpowered because then it turns into, what's the point of being a mage class when my abilities are 0 when I have no more MP, at least on a melee class I only need to use TP to use abilities.

It's just the one thing you need to keep in mind, a THM/BLM strength comes from the fact that they use MP to cast their spells, without said MP they have no battle potency.

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Originally Posted by Airget

You're missing something with your adjustment. a THM/BLM uses MP which when they run out they have to restore. Also spells at lv 50 cost a lot of MP so if you aren't careful you'll find yourself without any MP to perform actions. Melee on the otherhand have the ability to continuously gain TP to perform abilities as well as combos which save them from using TP. a Mages combo only adds an extra effect to the ability it does nothing to save them MP. The balance is there people just prefer to use THM/BLM because of the pretty numbers but in a fight that may go on for quite a while you may find that the THM/BLM will tucker out after a set amount of time.

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You can easily fix this by giving BLM more MP refund mechanics and making refresh/MP regen scale with its secondary stat, Piety. You can then justify nerfed damage because the job would be getting more longevity.

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Though perhaps to make things interesting some new bosses which could be introduced are perhaps ones that have AOE mp drain or counter mp drain when to many spells are cast on them at once.

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There's also mechanics like this, which were interesting to deal with and very much encouraged MP management.

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Originally Posted by Randelmire

IMO longer fights doesn't fit with the chain system.

I'm pretty sure that what was intended is fighting multiple ennemie one after another.

Also there are some ennemies that are longer to kill already.

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You do know they got that system from ffxi right? It worked just fine.

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Originally Posted by Airget

You're missing something with your adjustment. a THM/BLM uses MP which when they run out they have to restore. Also spells at lv 50 cost a lot of MP so if you aren't careful you'll find yourself without any MP to perform actions. Melee on the otherhand have the ability to continuously gain TP to perform abilities as well as combos which save them from using TP. a Mages combo only adds an extra effect to the ability it does nothing to save them MP. The balance is there people just prefer to use THM/BLM because of the pretty numbers but in a fight that may go on for quite a while you may find that the THM/BLM will tucker out after a set amount of time.

Though perhaps to make things interesting some new bosses which could be introduced are perhaps ones that have AOE mp drain or counter mp drain when to many spells are cast on them at once. So if you have 4 THM/BLM in the party and they all cast a spell in a 30 second segment then the last one to cast the spell will be aspired and lose some MP. This isn't to say that having 4 THM/BLM would now be useless but it would just mean that said mages would need to stagger their abilities and find other ways to be useful during combat such as 3 THM/BLM target the boss while one waits for adds or perhaps they go on THM and support the WHM while also keeping an eye out for adds.

Adding the same killing speed will only cause melee to become overpowered because then it turns into, what's the point of being a mage class when my abilities are 0 when I have no more MP, at least on a melee class I only need to use TP to use abilities.

It's just the one thing you need to keep in mind, a THM/BLM strength comes from the fact that they use MP to cast their spells, without said MP they have no battle potency.

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They could also give black mage a MP augment, as Duelle said. They should have the most mp out of the two classes by far. Though, I feel they are lacking the MP, or maybe cut down on the mp cost of spells(they need to be reworked either way).

There is a lot of (deliberate?) misunderstanding going on here.

- Longer fights don't necessarily equal slower leveling, all SE has to do is raise exp per mob while making said mob tougher.
- People saying debuff classes would be useful in raids miss the fact that to be able to participate in raids those playing the class would have to leech themselves from 1-50, since debuffs are useless in normal partying as it is now

When I party, most of the time I only have a chance to execute one - two WS or cast a spell before the whole mob drops dead. This is way too easy.

Castrum Novum is actually better balanced, so I am usually able to execute a 3WS combo before a target dies. It is partially due to their higher def and partially to their numbers. And it's much more fun this way, it's been a while since I enjoyed fighting multiple mobs at once.

@people flooding this (and other) thread(s) with OT drama: you do realize that NOT REPLYING will make his threads sink to the bottom of the forums quite quickly, so if you think an idea he suggest is stupid, do just that. Why do you feel obliged to post in his threads to collectively say how stupid it is? Is it really worth your time or are you just bored? If you insist on continuing to gang up on a single guy, by all means feel free continuing to be a douche.

I really am glad the forum community doesn't represent the actual ingame community.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I really am glad the forum community doesn't represent the actual ingame community.

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Same. Most of the suggestions on this forum are bad, and at times I can't tell if the person is being serious or not.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

- People saying debuff classes would be useful in raids miss the fact that to be able to participate in raids those playing the class would have to leech themselves from 1-50, since debuffs are useless in normal partying as it is now

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Not really. It just means their methods of dealing damage would be less direct. It's what differentiates a straight out nuker like BLM from a guy that stacks dots on the mob and has abilities with damage modifiers based on those dots to do similar overall damage.

Assuming we get Necromancer, NEC's starting attacks in a rotation could be three debuffs that deal damage over time while having secondary effects. Say, Curse (DoT + lowers damage resistance), Exhaust (DoT + lowers accuracy and evasion), and Bane (DoT + lowers elemental resistances). Then they can toss in "nukes" that scale in potential damage depending on how many debuffs they have up on the mob. It wouldn't be doing the exact same damage as a BLM in terms of damage per spell, but it would perform equally between DoT damage and "nuke" damage.

As far as other enfeebles, this is why you can't have a class entirely devoted to debuffing (and why I suggest spreading debuffs between the classes and jobs). Buff/debuff has to be built in to a greater whole, because they are tertiary aspects of gameplay and should never be the raison d'etre of a job/class.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Not really. It just means their methods of dealing damage would be less direct. It's what differentiates a straight out nuker like BLM from a guy that stacks dots on the mob and has abilities with damage modifiers based on those dots to do similar overall damage.

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This is assuming debuff design doesn't change. As far as I understood their plans, the current debuffs being additions to normal spells is "temporary" until they introduce a real debuff class. Even if said class would have some damage skills, they would have to balance them to deal less damage to offset the future use of debuffs in raids.

The problem with leveling would then be, why bother casting a debuff that takes 1% of mob's hp if the mob will die in less than 10 seconds anyway? Why not take a class that can push that to 7 seconds instead of the debuffer that makes way too little difference?

What you are saying would be true if we had longer battle times - then debuffs would be able to make some real difference. The longer the fight, the higher the impact of debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

This is assuming debuff design doesn't change.

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Actually, I'm assuming debuff design changes. Just more in the direction of bosses being balanced around the expectation of the raid having stuff like +spell damage taken, Defense Down, Attack Down, and so on. Some can even double as part of a damage rotation (like with my Necromancer suggestion), giving the raid a benefit while adding to the job's gameplay.

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As far as I understood their plans, the current debuffs being additions to normal spells is "temporary" until they introduce a real debuff class. Even if said class would have some damage skills, they would have to balance them to deal less damage to offset the future use of debuffs in raids.

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This depends on where they want to go with debuffs. If they want to go back to garbage system we had in FFXI then we're going to have that circus all over again. You won't be able to avoid the fact that if the masses figure out how to make due without the debuff class, you're back at square one.

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The problem with leveling would then be, why bother casting a debuff that takes 1% of mob's hp if the mob will die in less than 10 seconds anyway? Why not take a class that can push that to 7 seconds instead of the debuffer that makes way too little difference?

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Why are you limiting yourself to the XP party thing? I prefer to look at game balance from something that can be controlled like dungeon mobs, bosses, world bosses and even stuff like hamlet defense. None of that dies in 10 seconds.

This is really where the balancing part comes into play. to ensure the numbers are the same while making utility nice to have, especially in 24-mans.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

When i say longer fights, I don't mean 15mins athaya.....

Anything longer than 2 seconds really >.> lol

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pretty much this i should be able to ws each fight lol

we need actual fights. right now its mindless

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

There is a lot of (deliberate?) misunderstanding going on here.

- Longer fights don't necessarily equal slower leveling, all SE has to do is raise exp per mob while making said mob tougher.
- People saying debuff classes would be useful in raids miss the fact that to be able to participate in raids those playing the class would have to leech themselves from 1-50, since debuffs are useless in normal partying as it is now

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Two flaws in this argument.

The first assumes that longer fights, by default, equate to more enjoyable combat. In regards to the context of the argument, which is farming field monsters for EXP, this isn't true - as evidenced by the behavior in FFXI. The long fight process was long ago abandoned by the faster killed monsters and the relative safety of low HP mobs. Longer, safer fights actual makes fighting fatigue quickier because there's no engagement. Just grind away at mob 1 until it does, then move onto mob 2.

Castra Novum was successful because it alternated the kinds of monsters between the more difficult, and the fodder kind. There were still enemies that died or were severely injured in the first wave of a BLM group nuking - but what made the fight more intriguing were the ones that survived, and made life hell on the BLM for going all out without paying attention to their targets.

The second issue assumes 2 majorly flawed things. 1. That the debuffer class deals no comparative damage in fast killing situations. (Which would be a false implication considering that the enemies would still be just about as weak to them as they would be to any other class.) And the second major flaw is assuming that the debuffer class would need to leach anything to get to 50, in this game's solo-friendly environment. We've already JUST ended the discussion about alarmists worried that leveling is going to be too fast, and now you're going to inverse that statement because it aids a different arguent? Sorry, can't have cake and eat it too. Either leveling is fast and it supports classes like these, or it's not and you have this porblem. All indications point to the former.

In either case, these issues aren't overlooked, they're previously addressed. In fact, you arguments suffer from the uniting flaw that it completely neglects solo. You want monsters that are harder to for groups in the normal field, you do so at the direct loss of solo play, and at the direct neglect of enemy strongholds - which are developed specifically for group play.

If I go do a level 30 leave at level 30 with a bunch of my friend the same level - I cannot by reason complain at the ease the leve is completed. If you're seeking longer fights, seek harder monsters. They are out there, and they are avoided for the same reasons why people often solo their classes - they'd rather not have to depend on other for their day to day character training.

Again, there are other ways to accommodate this desire for more dynamic combat, some of which I've already listed in this thread. Do not touch field monsters.

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In either case, these issues aren't overlooked, they're previously addressed. In fact, you arguments suffer from the uniting flaw that it completely neglects solo. You want monsters that are harder to for groups in the normal field, you do so at the direct loss of solo play, and at the direct neglect of enemy strongholds - which are developed specifically for group play.

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he not talking about making it harder but anyfight should last longer than a weapon skill combo. short fights like we have neglets gameplay mechanics by not using anything but trying to attack a mob before it dies. there no point for to even buff up because of that and also makes it where having a future debuffing class useless.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

Same. Most of the suggestions on this forum are bad, and at times I can't tell if the person is being serious or not.

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I just assume that they arent. It makes me feel better about humanity

From the (old) FFXIV 2.0 page:

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Enemy leader and group systems to be removed before version 2.0.
Enemy "call for help" system released in patch 1.19, causing nearby enemies to link when called.
Release of a system to calculate enemy strength based on party size and member levels. Enemy "call for
help" system to be adjusted in patch 1.20 so only appropriate enemy types link.

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I am not sure if the bolded sections have been implemented already or scrapped till 2.0.

By my understanding, both have already been released.

The first bolded is the mention of 'preset parties' in which you tick off an enemy leader, the entire group links to you and gang rapes you.

The second is connected to the text after the bold as well. Effectively - the number of the enemies that respond to the 'call for help' is in direct relation to the number of allies you have by your size and your collective strength. A full party of 8 is going to have to deal with a lot more straight links than someone going solo, who will likely just have to face individual aggro without links.

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Originally Posted by indira

he not talking about making it harder but anyfight should last longer than a weapon skill combo. short fights like we have neglets gameplay mechanics by not using anything but trying to attack a mob before it dies. there no point for to even buff up because of that and also makes it where having a future debuffing class useless.

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This is a matter of attacking weaker monsters, not a matter about the monsters themselves being too weak.

A part attacking a pack maybe one or two levels above them are going to rip said monsters apart. Especially jobs like Warrior and Black Mage who are designed to deal large amounts of AoE damage against monsters of equivilant or lower level then they are.

Attacking monsters significantly higher level typically yeilds a far more difficult fight. However, such an experience is not met just finding monsters on the beaten paths in the field - you have to go to dungeons for that, unless you want to intentionally go seeking dangerous camps, which most people simply don't want to do because they'd rather the safe XP.

Again, you're asking for a practice dummy, not a real fight. A real fight involves danger, danger is something you don't want in your XP grind. And if you're just grinding away XP, then you might as well just sit back and enjoy the AoE fest.

IF you want something more in depth than that, then you shouldn't be asking for harder field monsters (There are plenty, they are dangerous.) You should be asking for content specifically designed to help level groups together, such as group leves.

every single enemy wouldn't be that cool, but I actually miss the longer fights that XI had. There was more time to play around with things. What I would do if I had Yoshi P's job as a compromise would be mini bosses for levequests. Maybe if you pick a certain difficulty setting, the leve would have an optional boss spawn at the end that would drop some kinda chest. This boss would be harder to defeat than a normal mob, but soloable and not as difficult as an NM or dungeon boss.

I was thinking leve quests as it's own catagories. Tailored specifically for parties to level and train together with.

Players on these boards have been making complaints that the leveling speed is too fast and it's leaving players unprepared for parties and raids and whatnot.

Well, what if part of that process involved a party leveling system that mimicked certain raid behaviors like objectives or mini-boss fights, or coordinated enemy groups? But done so on smaller scale. This way, the speed of leveling is moot as you're already practicing in groups instead of grinding mobs solo. You don't have to complain about the AoE fest as the fights are tailored to require group dynamics instead of BLM spamming. And you wind up with a stronger bond between players as desired by many on these boards.

But I'd rather the group leve system be developed specifically for groups, so that it gives players those options, rather than simply coat-tailing off exact leve objectives.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This depends on where they want to go with debuffs. If they want to go back to garbage system we had in FFXI then we're going to have that circus all over again. You won't be able to avoid the fact that if the masses figure out how to make due without the debuff class, you're back at square one.

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And the garbage FFXI system was what? Please don't assume everyone played FFXI. It even says so in my sig.

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Why are you limiting yourself to the XP party thing? I prefer to look at game balance from something that can be controlled like dungeon mobs, bosses, world bosses and even stuff like hamlet defense. None of that dies in 10 seconds..

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I am not limiting myself to leveling, I am trying to pull more attention to it just as you are trying to pull more attention to the endgame component. There are people who enjoy the leveling process. It's much more than just a grind, it lets you meet new people easily unlike endgame content where everyone sticks to their LS for the most part.

MMOs are supposed to have social interaction as one of their main aspects, but from what I see lately the trend seems to be shifting to clustering into closed groups or even just play solo.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The first assumes that longer fights, by default, equate to more enjoyable combat. In regards to the context of the argument, which is farming field monsters for EXP, this isn't true - as evidenced by the behavior in FFXI. The long fight process was long ago abandoned by the faster killed monsters and the relative safety of low HP mobs. Longer, safer fights actual makes fighting fatigue quickier because there's no engagement. Just grind away at mob 1 until it does, then move onto mob 2.

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You are jumping to extremes here. I don't want to have a mob take 1-5 minutes to take down. All I want is to be actually able to use a full combo on a mob and be able to learn how to play my class before going into endgame, not only have barely enough TP to execute my combo starter skill I got 30 levels before all over again because mobs drop in 5-6 seconds.

"Endgame" LSes require you to be experienced if you want to join them. But how are you supposed to gain this experience if leveling can be done by executing the same WS/spell all the time, requiring no actual skill at all?

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The second issue assumes 2 majorly flawed things. 1. That the debuffer class deals no comparative damage in fast killing situations. (Which would be a false implication considering that the enemies would still be just about as weak to them as they would be to any other class.)

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No one has so far been able to tell me why you should cast a debuff on a target that is going to die as soon as you finish casting in most cases anyway. 2-3 THM starting to cast fire will finish either shortly after the debuffer or at the same time, not letting the debuff make it's work in case it's a DoT, or won't matter much if it's a def-down/atk-down - the monster will die anyway.

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And the second major flaw is assuming that the debuffer class would need to leach anything to get to 50, in this game's solo-friendly environment. We've already JUST ended the discussion about alarmists worried that leveling is going to be too fast, and now you're going to inverse that statement because it aids a different arguent?

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Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Leeching won't make leveling faster, it will slow the group down overall. I am not talking about PL here.

Solo is much more slower than party play, it's just there to be able to say "well, you could just level solo".

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In either case, these issues aren't overlooked, they're previously addressed. In fact, you arguments suffer from the uniting flaw that it completely neglects solo. You want monsters that are harder to for groups in the normal field, you do so at the direct loss of solo play, and at the direct neglect of enemy strongholds - which are developed specifically for group play.

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There is no loss of solo play in making enemies last longer. As I already said, you are exaggerating the increase of the length of an encounter.

Enemy strongholds being group content? I lost count of how many WARs I saw soloing Natalan without major problems.

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If I go do a level 30 leave at level 30 with a bunch of my friend the same level - I cannot by reason complain at the ease the leve is completed. If you're seeking longer fights, seek harder monsters.

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Optimal exp at the moment is killing monsters +5 levels of your group. And those die in 3-5 seconds under concentrated fire. Mobs around your level die within 2-3 seconds.

Soukyuu, how long is a 'longer' in your opinion?
You keep saying that it takes 5 seconds to kill a monster, and that 1 minute is an exxageration. So what is your pefect time?
I say that because I've done levelling parties mostly in the 1~30 range and monsters certainly last a lot longer than 5 seconds.
That said, we usually do only have one or two thaumaturges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skies

Soukyuu, how long is a 'longer' in your opinion?

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Something around 30 seconds. That way you can build enough TP to start a combo, finish it and be able to switch to the next one.

The 5-6 seconds is after the first THM finishes casting, first damage marking the start of the encounter for me. I haven't actually timed it, but that's how long it feels. It's not specifically about a certain time span for me, but more about how many skills you can execute before the mob drops dead.

Hrm, I see.
I must have a very unusual gameplay experience. I remember very often on my Lancer tossing out various WSes, most specifically Leg Sweep.
Only time I barely managed to do a Weaponskill was when my Gladiator was levelling in a group with my friends's Thaumaturge/Archer. They kept using ST nukes on me :(

does this guy make ridiculous petitions daily..?