Objectively, The Royal Managerie Will Be Nerfed

Honestly, I was kinda on the fence about whether or not the fight should be nerfed, but after doing Omega and finding all four of those fights easier than Shinryu, I wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf somewhere in that fight.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

Originally I was on the side of saying "dont nerf this", because its really not that hard, and I think failure is fine in a game. I mean ,we all took several tries to get through the later stages of each Super Mario Bros. level, didnt we? But then seeing how the content after it is easier or the same level, I sense that Shinryu is indeed a mistake and was intended to be more facerolley too. Why? Because the entirety of Omega comes after it, and is very easy, Susano Ex is barely more difficult, and Lakshmi is now old content so doesnt count anyway (she was replaced by O1 freeloot boss entirely)

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Why not just ask the devs to increase the story raid difficulty from easy to normal?
This was also a problem with Alex storymode. It is too easy.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Why not just ask the devs to increase the story raid difficulty from easy to normal?
This was also a problem with Alex storymode. It is too easy.

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Because story raid difficulty is just fine where it is: tricky mechanics to master like Shinryu, but they're not as punishing to the entire raid.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

It makes no sense to have an actually challenging (for first tries, anyway) fight as a gateway to faceroll content.

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Yes, it does. You're not supposed to farm Shinryu over and over again, it's a one time challenge. If every stage of Omega was as difficult, people would start ignoring it completely...or asking for nerfs :p

Just finished the fight. My 1st group (I don't count queueing into an already disbanding party a bit earlier), 3rd attempt (32%, 3% and kill). 3-4 newbies me included (one being a truly great healer), 3-4 awesome friendly veterans , particularly both tanks (Valeria Lyonward, Leon Ae'noquar - my thanks if you read this), and salty 2nd healer who nevertheless at least knew their stuff.

I didn't feel any accomplishment after finishing it, just relief. The difficulty is OK, but the fight (particularly the second part) is too long (even if you dutifully kill each tail). It basically beats you by attrition. I'm pretty sure we would have it down on 2nd attempt, but people just wanted to be done with it after the drag and stopped focusing.

Keep the mechanics and the damage values, but cut the boss HP (I'd even say by as much as 20%) and it will be fine.

Never cleared it yet 7+ hours wasted on it. 7 times 45 to 60 minute que's for it and 7 times failed because tanks start complaining at each other and start calling healers names then they quit and party gets disbanded. Tells me sure needs nerfed if ones start fighting in it from wiping. whats up with se having another dragon god for end boss thought bahamut was suppost to be the god of all dragons.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Never cleared it yet 7+ hours wasted on it. 7 times 45 to 60 minute que's for it and 7 times failed because tanks start complaining at each other and start calling healers names then they quit and party gets disbanded. Tells me sure needs nerfed if ones start fighting in it from wiping. whats up with se having another dragon god for end boss thought bahamut was suppost to be the god of all dragons.

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You need not worry.

SE already has a low completion rate on all MSQ for the majority of the playerbase according to polls. They just offered a jump potion which doesn't help anyone who hasn't had two expansions of training.

SE likes money as any other company. No nerf equals less potential income. Nerf is incoming.

In FFXI I beat CoP pretty quick, but I knew many players who could never get access. Stupid money move to lock content behind super hard content, especially when some of that content is way easier than what is required to unlock it.

Maybe not a nerf... but increast its reward at least ? its so hard for people on the MSQ to be geared enough for that fight .... and i cry everytime i get it as trial roulette....

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

You need not worry.

SE already has a low completion rate on all MSQ for the majority of the playerbase according to polls.

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Source or I call bs.

Im at 15hours trying to complete that terribly ill-conceived designed idea of Savage mode in MSQ! THANKS! @__@ Fastest wipe I had 3x was right after the tidalwave. me and 2-3 other people paid attention to dodge that! >_> IF people cant even do THIS, cant even dodge critical atk - press any buttons... , then theres no help! :U

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Originally Posted by Dsync

My only real issue of feeling inclined to do this again is that you have to restart the whole boring first phase. Maybe if that gets completed then that could be a restart point if a group fails. Not like that bit's even difficult. Otherwise I just can't bring myself to do it again, unless someone I know needs it.

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I'd say this is the best suggestion anyone could offer, rather than making it easier, just give players the ability to start from the second part of the fight once they've reached that far. This would allow them to learn that part without having to go through the issues of Party Drama from having to start over after failing when reaching said part. Would ease that Stress for the overall group while giving them the opportunity to focus on just that phase without having to repeat the phase before it.

I wonder how they are going to nerf it, if at all? I would appreciate a low percent reduction to overall damage (like 2 or 3%) and extend some of the AoE casts by a fraction of a second to a second. There, fight nerfed and integrity (mostly) kept.

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Originally Posted by Katryn

My bf, who is the one that's run primal ex's and savage, though, is like WTF?! :O He thinks this fight is stupid and an oversight by SE since there are people who only have so much time and having to get multiple groups in df before clearing is counter productive. He feels that if SE wants to make FC mandatory content and place it as part of the MSQ, that the whole MSQ should have that requirement (he feels this is unpuggable and needs a static).

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You don't need a static. Royal Manegerie isn't even that hard. You simply need people who aren't idiots. My first attempt we had a Warrior pull multiple times before the countdown and promptly die to Tidal Wave every single time despite being told repeatedly how to handle it. Friend of mine posted a macro of literally every ability throughout the fight and how to handle them. Nope. People still couldn't do it. That isn't the devs nor game's fault but people being not paying attention. They shouldn't be rewarded for not understanding the basics of how their job or how to not stand in the giant orange markers.

Objectively, to get up to Royal Managerie implies you have defeated Shiva, Titan, Leviathan, Garuda, Ifrit, and Thordan. Literally all of his mechanics come from those fights. There's realy no way players can mess this mechanics up, because they've *DONE THEM BEFORE*. Shinryu just mixes them up in a different order, but you've seen it all before. There's nothing really new.

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Originally Posted by Sereph6

I agree, but the number of people that join RM without completing their lvl70 job quest is awfully high and I don't get why. As soon as I hit 70 I literally rushed to complete the job quest.
New shiny skill? Sign me up
New awesome gear? Yay
New cool weapon? YAY
But no no, a lot of people (at least in my Data Center) ignore it and join regardless - a lot of them with lvl60 gear, too. Not surprised you wipe!

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The new skill wouldn't make much of a different if you're a scholar :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Once again, the problem with Steps of Faith was not difficulty. It was the design...

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Yeah you had to actually talk to your party. This is why Steps went fubar half the time

"So who has cannons?!"
(No one speaks. someone starts a dance emote.)
"Who..wants DK?"
(No one speaks, a new dance emote and people sit waiting.)
"We need two people on cannons."
"Just go plz."
.....Fine.. /pull

One person runs to cannons, the others try to dmg deal the boss and forget about the adds, then someone says they'll do the DK but has no idea how to do it. Misses it twice. People facepalm in chats and everyone wonders why you can't get something done so you'd figure "Okay round 2, lets ask these questions again" and yet again people are silent, and maybe someone leaves. Then again you have a point, if it wasn't so long maybe there would be a tad more tolerance.

I don't think this applies so much to this instance as much.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Objectively, to get up to Royal Managerie implies you have defeated Shiva, Titan, Leviathan, Garuda, Ifrit, and Thordan. Literally all of his mechanics come from those fights...

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You'd think so, but I see people FLY off when Ice is put on the ground. Stacking in puddles for Thunder. People taking a bit of time and realizing what they're doing and they'll be fine.

I think gating the MSQ behind a hard (well, harder than average) trial is a good move, because now SE can be more creative and design more challenging level 70 content knowing that anyone who reaches it will need to have cleared the Royal Managerie at some point.

I'm eight hours in and I'm a rdm who has to verraise like, six - eight people a fight. I think I've died twice in my last forty attempts before the party wipe. It's getting out of hand, the second a tank or healer starts bickering the party falls apart.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

I think gating the MSQ behind a hard (well, harder than average) trial is a good move, because now SE can be more creative and design more challenging level 70 content knowing that anyone who reaches it will need to have cleared the Royal Managerie at some point.

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They already showed with Omegas faceroll difficulty that they intend to go backwards.

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Originally Posted by Phaerius

I'm eight hours in and I'm a rdm who has to verraise like, six - eight people a fight. I think I've died twice in my last forty attempts before the party wipe. It's getting out of hand, the second a tank or healer starts bickering the party falls apart.

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This was my experience as well with the two groups and dozen or so attempts I had this morning.

I'm following mechanics as best as I'm able, but I seem to be spending more time raising people than doing my actual job(DPS). Though I admit, having the ability to cast a 1.9 sec Jolt then insta-cast Verraise is nice.

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Originally Posted by Katryn

My bf, who is the one that's run primal ex's and savage, though, is like WTF?! :O He thinks this fight is stupid and an oversight by SE since there are people who only have so much time and having to get multiple groups in df before clearing is counter productive. He feels that if SE wants to make FC mandatory content and place it as part of the MSQ, that the whole MSQ should have that requirement (he feels this is unpuggable and needs a static).

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You don't need a static. You just need people who are paying attention, which is a pretty high standard for DF, but doable. I cleared using DF just fyi. Once you know the dance the fight gets pretty easy since it's just knowing where to stand at that point.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

The same defensive rationales will be made, i.e. "all you need is a premade..."

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You absolutely do not need a pre-made for Royal Menagerie.

It sucks that people are getting matched up with players that seem to have their heads firmly planted inside of their rears, but it is by no means a difficult fight. None of the mechanics are new, and as others have mentioned, mechanics tend to come one at a time.

Moreover, the mechanics are very forgiving as few of them will actually one-shot players.

There isn't anything difficult about this fight. Can you react to giant flashing icons? Can you do some semblance of a rotation? If yes, you should be able to clear assuming most of your other party members are functioning at a similar capacity.

Final steps of faith was objectively a harder fight. It had a fairly tight dps check on the adds,and was much more healing intensive.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

"So who has cannons?!"
(No one speaks. someone starts a dance emote.)
"Who..wants DK?"
(No one speaks, a new dance emote and people sit waiting.)
"We need two people on cannons."
"Just go plz."
.....Fine.. /pull

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OMFG; Leigaon, you have captured perfectly my experience on Steps. That awkward silence when you try to put some order. What I did out of anger when that happened, I just picked people and assigned them a role "You, Carl. You're going to take the left cannon. Go. Steve, you're taking left. George, you're in charge of the DK. Everybody else burn boss, bring adds under the dragon's head and don't bother with them, we're going to burn them with the cannons".

Suprisignly, giving orders worked, and it taught me why people went silent, they didn't know how to do it. So, when I forced assigned people, they were like "But I don't know how to do it", then I proceeded to explain. Otherwise, no one would say a thing.

It baffles me how people, playing an MMO, can be so antisocial or afraid of people sometimes... and yet, venture themselves into DF with complete strangers.

Also, as a form of invitation, I'd like to ask these people posting here having troubles (saying that they spent 9999 years trying to clear) to list what's the thing they're having trouble with. That way, we can help them understand the fight and get them a step closer to clear. The fight is not hard, IT'S NOT EASY, but not hard either. Saying it's on the same level than savage or extreme is a nonsense.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Im at 15hours trying to complete that terribly ill-conceived designed idea of Savage mode in MSQ! THANKS! @__@ Fastest wipe I had 3x was right after the tidalwave. me and 2-3 other people paid attention to dodge that! >_> IF people cant even do THIS, cant even dodge critical atk - press any buttons... , then theres no help! :U

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It's cute that you think this is Savage tier. If it was actually Savage difficulty, then only a handful of players would be able to clear it. Blame the players, not the game.

Have you tried making a party in Party Finder? Asking friends/members in your FC?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Final steps of faith was objectively a harder fight. It had a fairly tight dps check on the adds,and was much more healing intensive.

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Let's also remember Cruise Chaser. While not a MSQ fight, I recall people complaining about its difficulty and wanting it to be nerfed. It never was. Ozma, Scathach and Diabolos Hollow are other examples, too.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

They already showed with Omegas faceroll difficulty that they intend to go backwards.

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You say that but I think Omega's already a fair bit more challenging than most of the "casual" content in HW, or at least there's more thought and creativity put into the mechanics for NM (maybe with the exception of V1) since it already has more going on than just dodging AoE markers on the ground and stacking inside the big yellow arrows.

I've got one person in my FC who is my gauge of what a "casual" can do. She's in the game to fish, and anything that isn't fishing is just content to be cleared, so she's never gonna have the best gear, or know the optimal job rotation. She dies a lot in new fights. A LOT.

And.... damned if she didn't clear this fight before I did. (Mostly because I've been at Anime Expo for the last 5 days.) But she had to do it with our FC.

The issue is that this fight requires one of several things: 1. Tons of practice, as it's got a lot of movement 2. A group that knows what they're doing 3. Two excellent healers that can carry the rest of the group and a ranged DPS to keep refresh up for them.

Because so many people are raw at 70, randomly getting a PUG in Duty Finder with one of those three things is a crapshoot. It'll improve with time, though.

...And he's down!! Thanks to the fantastic PUG group that I was with when we cleared him about 90 minutes ago. :D Things that helped our group included:

1. Markers in all 3 directions tidal wave can go. Helps with it and with safe(r) spots during add meteors just before the ATM.

2. Everybody hanging out in one of the corners of the gray platform when you get to the phase with the breakable tiles. It helps you escape the tail and the hand pound, it keeps people together for heals like Asylum, Medica II and Cure III, and it ensures a tank isn't going to solo Akhmorn.

3. As a whm I definitely feel Cure III was helpful in the later end of the fight when things get crazy. This worked because our group stayed relatively united when we could.

Well, that's my clear. Now I've gotta make sure the bf gets through. Man this is a weird turn of events. *laughs*

I'm not a terrible player, but my vision is crap and I have issues with my hands. Anyone who is still struggling: don't give up. And if you keep having trouble, try to brainstorm things you can do that might make the fight go better. Not because it's "your fault"--blame rarely helps anyone--but because the things you learn and improve on can be carried from group to group until you win. Good luck!

I really can't believe there is another thread about this. The fight really isn't that bad if you can react to very basic mechanics. I cleared it solo in DF the first time as I was ahead of my friends, helped my healer friend, my bard friend, and my rdm friend. There were wipes every time, but the only time it wasn't a clear was once when someone left after the second wipe. If you give people a chance to learn without bailing on them people would have more success and less frustration.

This is just my opinion on the matter.

I've said it before in this thread, this fight is all about raid awareness. Not terribly hard if you pay attention. It's a good lesson and a good gate to endgame content as far as combat is concerned. The fact is, if you lack basic Raid Awareness there's not too much the end game can offer you. The primals may be easier and Omega may be easy as well but there is still cast times to watch, and visual queues to see and if you cant pay attention enough in a easily read fight then why do you want to do potentially harder content in the future?

maybe it isn't you, maybe it is party members. Explain the mechanics, if you dont know them well enough then watch a video for a better understanding of the mechanics so you can explain them when needed. If people dont want to listen, let them get stuck forever and find yourself a new party. People who dont want to improve will always try and bring things down where people trying to improve (in my case and opinion) will want content to get harder. It's annoying with the DPS queues but that should be what a FC or friends (PF too) are for. If your FC and friends cant be bothered to help you progress then you have bigger problems than a fight.

I really would hate to see this great lesson of a fight nerfed, and its not even a git gud moment... its purely a basic essential skills check needed for clearing most future end game content. At least thats how I look at it.

I have attempted to tank this on DF with 7 groups and have wiped roughly 22 times now. I have not personally failed a mechanic since the 3rd group; at this point I've written a macro for explaining the mechanics at the start and I still have people getting swept off the stage by tidal wave. Are there any linkshells for endgame content like this? I like the people in my FC, but they're pretty thoroughly casual and won't help me. I need a pair of solid healers and some DPS that know not to stand in the AoEs.

This is..... unfortunate to hear because I cleared it in DF with two FC friends. We wiped 3 times I think before everyone figured out how to do it. Cleared it on the fourth go. Not only that, but I get it rather often for trials roulette, always with at least one newbie, usually more, and we always manage to clear. I know my experiences aren't the same as others, but I think people just need some patience before claiming it's poorly designed. I like the fight. I think it should stay as is.

I like the fight and think it's one of the best that they have ever designed. But this is also beyond frustrating - I've played perfectly and explained the mechanics for no fewer than four groups and I still can't clear the damned thing. It is going to be nerfed, no question - DF on average can't handle it. But I would like to finish it once before that happens.

I ran this trial twice as a paladin and main tanked. The first time I attempted it, I made a lot of mistakes and the party wiped 3-4 times. One player voted to abandon, but everyone else wanted to try again since we were improving each time. We tried one more time and cleared.

Just for fun, I ran this again with a pick up group today. No one explained any mechanics to the new comers. I cleared on the first try this time. I managed to survive the entire fight and was able to lead by example. :cool: I wasn't keeping track of who died, but there were lots and lots of deaths during the battle. It's a forgiving trial as long as you don't lose both tanks and/or both healers.

No nerf stop asking for it . just l2p.
If people are not willing to even do this easy as it is run then why this people even in the game?
Just move out of aoe at lvl 70 is not hard or new.
If some one cant do this then i am sorry to say this but they are in the wrong game.

When I first encountered this trial, I had gone through 11 groups that were unable to beat this fight... I was considering cancelling my subscription because everyone that I had grouped with could not get past this fight, even tried multiple party finder groups that all failed miserably at this encounter because for a normal trial to be this difficult it should be nerfed. It acts too much like an actual Extreme difficulty Trial to be a ' normal ' trial. You can disagree with me all you like, but when you start having players cancelling their subscriptions over a trial. The clear reason is that they can't get past it to get to the Verity Vendor who gives you the ilvl 310 gear... You're stuck with people who rush through main story quest, get to the fight wearing level 66 and 68 gear and wonder why they are wiping due to low dps to kill the tail.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Im at 15hours trying to complete that terribly ill-conceived designed idea of Savage mode in MSQ! THANKS! @__@ Fastest wipe I had 3x was right after the tidalwave. me and 2-3 other people paid attention to dodge that! >_> IF people cant even do THIS, cant even dodge critical atk - press any buttons... , then theres no help! :U

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People can dodge it, though. All it takes is a bit of situational awareness and liberal use of the Sprint button. It's entirely possible to dodge "critical attacks" and you're given plenty of time to do so. People just need to not tunnel vision on this fight.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Objectively, to get up to Royal Managerie implies you have defeated Shiva, Titan, Leviathan, Garuda, Ifrit, and Thordan.

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Yes 2 years+ ago.
I cant remember eyery single Trial i was doing one time in 2015.

I like this Fight and clear it 5x now.
First time DF on 3.Try.
2x helped Player with PF.
2x Duty Roulette.

I think a tool like Raid Assist in WoW 2005 with "*tröööt*Tidal Wave in 5 sec."
will maybe useful for some players with tunnel vision.

The Royal Menagerie is not that hard but for MSQ as it was for Nidhogg or Steps of Faith, the level is maybe a little high. Nothing that we can't handle (or shouldn't) but in DF... if we are unlucky, we are obliged to wait to find the right party or to meet some overgeared people to run over it.

The real problem is dungons are really easy to compare with the trial.

Plus : people avoid this trial when they do their roulette. They just quit immediatly, they prefer to wait half an hour doing something else rather than to help to kill Shinryu.

From my point of view, they should change the ilvl of this trial from 280 to 285 to force people to get their job AF gear and all their skills. Many people are going in this trial just following the story mode and don't take the time to get their AF gear.

EDIT-UPDATE
5 runs, 20 wipe, not down

The main issues with this fight don't really have to do with the difficulty of the mechanics themselves, but rather merely experience and patience. I used to think that gating verity gear behind the MSQ was an issue, but then I realized that people who cannot do the mechanics of the fight would die regardless of their gear (the extra HP/MP/dps etc. would help a little, but missing mechanics and falling to your death, etc. are an issue). The main things are that even if an individual does everything perfectly because they have experience, they need to depend on the other 7 (or at least 1/2 of them) to do them. If the healers/tanks die, then it is pretty much a wipe.

Too many, even those who do mechanics and know the fight, are relying on others who may be new to the duty and who may not have the patience to endure wipe after wipe. I honestly don't know what the solution to this is since most every aspect of MMOs make you rely on others to succeed. Personal ability can only take one so far. I guess the only thing left for it is for people to have patience, acknowledge that others are learning, and most importantly just don't keep giving up after a few wipes. Oh...and though people may rail against me for this, I've found that those tanks who love their STR accessories should really switch out at least for this fight due to the shared tank damage. Every little bit of HP helps, I believe. I main tanked all my tries before beating it, and on one of them I had over 7k more HP than an equally or more highly geared DRK as a PLD.