Would you like an in-game parser?

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...01/892/b70.gif

On a more serious note, I don't really care if one got added or not. Everyone that wants a parser is already using one besides the PS4 players.

Now if this parser were to get released, there are some people who would get harassed, no doubt. Many of the raiders I've met can get really nasty. BUT the parser could help people improve themselves. It's a double edge sword.

I don't get why dps should get a free pass for sub-par performance. We already have easy to judge metrics for tanks and healers; If a tank isn't holding hate and a boss cleaves and wipes the party, that tank is going to get kicked, sometimes first time sometimes after they've done it repeatedly. If a healer isn't keeping the party up or is dropping the tank on a regular basis that healer's going to get kicked. Imagine a ravanna farm party where the either the helaers lack of heals or the tanks lack of aggro caused wipes.... The party responsible would definitely be booted or people would leave, and it's totally understandable. A mnk pulling 400 dps though? Totally acceptable because dps isn't something we're allowed to judge. It all comes down to the same thing, if you're going into something in a particular role, you have to fulfill that role.

Full parser end of story. I want to help the player base become better players not hinder them with half baked solutions likely to cause MORE drama and issues between players.

https://i.imgur.com/mDOJAWR.jpg

btw its just a game :P

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Here is a concern with a private parser, it needs to be in a way that players cannot force it into being a public parser, wouldn't it? its kinda why SSS ended up the ways it is(as questionable as it is for prepping someone)

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If I were to do a personal parser, I'd make it so there is no optional way to suddenly make it a group parser. But I don't think that's quite what you're asking for based on the next few posts so I'll try to expand on this differently.

If S-E were to implement an official parser, it would be nice if they also release a minimal expected DPS per dungeon to go along with that. That means up and coming new players can see what the minimal bar is set to and try to match that. This isn't to different then the intent SSS tries to set but it's a bit more global (ie stamped right onto the Duty Finder in big bold red letters). This bar will obviously be set much lower than what EX Primals and Savage Raids require.

The reason I suggest a minimal requirement as a shield mechanism against abuse. People will perform at various levels depending on their skill, gear, and let's say "distractions". Some of the more elitest / toxic players will believe if X player isn't reaching their particular standards, it'll be deserving of a kick. With S-E taking said standards into their own hands, it would keep the "entitlement factor" of the more elitest / toxic players in check and still give grounds to plausibly kick an "under performing player" without repercussion.

And while I am not against a personal parser, I do feel a group parser is the better way to go. A group parser allows a level of transparency that you wouldn't get in a personal parser. I've used this as an example in the past - a friend of mine was doing EXDR on BRD in the late AAR-patch era and got paired up with another BRD. During the dungeon the group wiped to a mechanic and this other BRD began to badger my friend about their rotation and DPS. Then the tank piped in and told the other BRD to "Hey, you know that BRD you're badgering is doubling your DPS, right?". The comment silenced the other BRD quite quickly. If a group parser was available that entire conversation would've been avoided and everyone would've gone on their merry way. In the same token, a group parser would easily allow everyone to identify who is under performing and "deal with it" accordingly pending how that conversation goes (if said under performer is trolling to the max... well, you know how that's going to go). In contrast, a personal parser can lead to bad assumptions such as "Well, you're not telling us your number so you're automatically bad" which also isn't very constructive.

A group parser can also be a motivator for newer players. Say an i145 DRG gets matched up with an i200 DRG in Fractual and notice that the i200 DRGs DPS is WAAAY up there compared to their own. That could show the new DRG what their job is capable of and encourage them reach that point. Sure it could be argued that it can be discouraging initially but every player should be striving to become better and this just gives them a new goal to reach.

TDLR: Give a group parser w/ S-E providing the bar to minimal contribution would be how I would implement a parser in FFXIV to minimize harassment issues.

209 votes out of millons of people really doesn't show anything. If you want to know how many people want/don't want a parser you would need a much, much larger sampling. This really proves nothing to the devs, lol.

Are people afraid of being called out by annoying toxic jerks? This sounds like the only reason people wouldn't want to have their DPS made public.
But after being called out by one of those jerks, you could take the feedback positively regardless of the words that were said. Having yourself being brought into the spotlight for a moment to give you the realization that you are under-performing should be replied with "I need to find a way to get better!" not "I should ignore that jerk because he was being mean about it."

Yeah some people have no tact and cannot be polite regarding things. It happens. When you get down to the end result, you may not yet realize how much you have been under-performing. I have no idea about myself I don't parse. But I've been called out before and I've used it to improve. I won't dismiss advice helping me just because I was told I shouldn't be living or something to that effect.

If there's some other reason people don't want a public parse, I'm all ears.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

https://i.imgur.com/mDOJAWR.jpg

btw its just a game :P

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Ahh yeah, hes vise. I love alot of his quotes. Yes it is a game, but seriously, don't waste my time if you want help and don't care to improve in both dps and mechanics. If you wanna wipe for 10 hours on same thing after 1 min into a pull, that's your choice. My choice is to have fun, having fun is being avaible to beat my previous records, improving in both dps and mechanics, same time beating content. For ME this is fun, there is no fun when some people aren't willing to listen and drags a whole party down :). Yes it is a game and it's meant to be fun and this is my way of fun.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Are people afraid of being called out by annoying toxic jerks? This sounds like the only reason people wouldn't want to have their DPS made public.
But after being called out by one of those jerks, you could take the feedback positively regardless of the words that were said. Having yourself being brought into the spotlight for a moment to give you the realization that you are under-performing should be replied with "I need to find a way to get better!" not "I should ignore that jerk because he was being mean about it."

Yeah some people have no tact and cannot be polite regarding things. It happens. When you get down to the end result, you may not yet realize how much you have been under-performing. I have no idea about myself I don't parse. But I've been called out before and I've used it to improve. I won't dismiss advice helping me just because I was told I shouldn't be living or something to that effect

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Yeah same here. When people saw how bad I did, I simply ignore what they said and became better. If you are in a spotlight and people tell you how bad you are, both nice or assholes, you should still think about improving. It's like what you said, many ignore the fact and keep telling themselves ''this guy is just mean''. I have my own raid group and when I screw up I get told and I like it, because it means I need to improve. Many people take this the bad way, even if told nicely.

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Originally Posted by magdahmhara

209 votes out of millons of people really doesn't show anything. If you want to know how many people want/don't want a parser you would need a much, much larger sampling. This really proves nothing to the devs, lol.

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If the sample is strong enough, they could push an in game survey upon log in.

200+ people voting a single topic on the forum is allot of attention towards any subject.

Seems to me the playerbase has done just fine without a Parser all this time. After all, every new dungeon, quest, trial, etc introduced - whether normal, hard, or savage, has been cleared, has it not?

Seems to me people are doing just fine without parsers to tell them what they already know - that they're doing sufficient output, and dancing to the mechanics sufficiently to defeat the content. But that's not enough. There's gotta be NUMBERS!

The SSS is clearly demonstrating to them exactly what they already want to know: Are they geared and performing sufficiently to handle related content. If they clear the SSS, then the definitive answer to that is "Yes, you are capable of clearing that content. Your Damage output and/or rotation are sufficient. You would have failed otherwise". But that's not enough. There's gotta be NUMBERS!

And further still, it's not enough - for some - to only see their own numbers. They already know they're awesome. No no... they have to see others' numbers, too. They want ALL THE NUMBERS!! Why? So they can lord over those whose NUMBERS!! don't match their own, or meet their own personal "standard" of what others "are required to meet". So they can berate all those "n00bs" and "bads" and "filthy casuals" for daring to exist in their game.

And to those saying "no no.... that totes won't be abused in FFXIV. It's all for the good of the players!" - you're either very new to MMOs, or you're a liar. Straight up.

People being arrogant pricks, mocking, berating and kicking others over "poor dps numbers" has been happening for years now, across numerous MMOs. People have been obsessed with NUMBERS! for a long time, and it's been well discussed and debated. Among others, it's one of the main reasons why so many are against them. It turns your standard garden variety elitist prick into an elitist prick who feels justified in behaving that way, because they have "data" to fling around as ammunition... data which others in their group may not give a crap about (they're just trying to enjoy their time in-game), but have to hear about anyway, because it's all about 'NUMBERS!'.

The same debate happens in every MMO, and the same arguments for it come up, for and against. You could almost copy and paste any thread from any MMO, replace the name of the MMO with "FFXIV", and you'd have a near duplicate.

What it seems to boil down to, to me, is that some people are just seriously obsessed - as in literally obsessed - with numbers. And it's nothing new.

Clearly, Yoshi-P is aware of the crap attitudes parser data encourages in a MMO community, and he does not want to see nor enable it in XIV. He's a MMO vet, himself, and has certainly seen a fair share of such behavior in his day. Yes, they are going to allow people to create their own parsers once player addons become possible - but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find access to certain data to be very limited, or rules enforced to punish those who use such data to abuse/harass other players.

As I've said before... No one *needs* an official parser. Certain people - those obsessed with NUMBERS! - just really really want one.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Seems to me the playerbase has done just fine without a Parser all this time. After all, every new dungeon, quest, trial, etc introduced - whether normal, hard, or savage, has been cleared, has it not?

Seems to me people are doing just fine without parsers to tell them what they already know - that they're doing sufficient output, and dancing to the mechanics sufficiently to defeat the content. But that's not enough. There's gotta be NUMBERS!

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Stopped reading after this. One requirement of a raid group is someone who parses, when you put that static together. Someone is parsing. Give me a world first or a world tenth that didn't use one. Hint: you won't find one.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

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Someone give her a medal, I couldn't have said any of this better myself. Like I said before, Raiders can get very nasty. One of the reasons I quit was because I wasn't going to put up with that garbage anymore.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Seems to me people are doing just fine without parsers to tell them what they already know - that they're doing sufficient output, and dancing to the mechanics sufficiently to defeat the content. But that's not enough. There's gotta be NUMBERS!

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No. Just no. This isn't just about numbers. You put a guy in a fight where BLM's for example or BRD/MCH has to move alot, they wouldn't need to move for jack shit on SSS. Put them in a fight like sephirot, thordan, midas savage etc, you will see it will ring another tone.
Example, a mnk can do insane dps on a stupid dummy, once they in a fight it will be different, with mechanics. Numbers only? What about your dps is low as 900 in a fight, then you suddenly want to use a parser or anyone else, they see it and they will probably think: Damn, this dps is low. How do I improve it? Well first, did he beat the dummy? Yes, did he do the mechanics on it? No. So this is where the parser is going to be the real deal, you look at it, find out what you doing wrong, fix it and voila you have increased the dps. There are fights you wanna hold your cds or even use them right away. It's all different from fight to fight. So numbers only? Nope.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Someone give her a medal, I couldn't have said any of this better myself. Like I said before, Raiders can get very nasty. One of the reasons I quit was because I wasn't going to put up with that garbage anymore.

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Yes it sucks you been through some nasty people. But we all have, in some sort of form. I'm all up for teaching people their rotations or improve their skills if they are willing to listen to, oh hey! I have met those people, and guess what? They come to me and they wanna hug the living shit out of me because I made them get better? That feeling is amazing. But you know what made me stay away from helping people for a while? Those who refused to listen to advice and tells me to fuck off. So those who refuses gets nasty as well ;)

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

It all comes down to the same thing, if you're going into something in a particular role, you have to fulfill that role.

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Holy... Okay this post has to be one of the best and THE most simpliest post on this forum. DPS job is to yes... DO DPS. Damage!!!!!! If you can't forfill that role, you have to either change or simply take advice from players. As this guy mention, tanks and healers gets easily screwed over, while a dps can afk for 10000 years in 24 man raid and still clear it. I know its faceroll content but how about when tanks lose aggro or healers doesn't heal? So sir, thank you for this post.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

And to those saying "no no.... that totes won't be abused in FFXIV. It's all for the good of the players!" - you're either very new to MMOs, or you're a liar. Straight up.

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I don't think anyone is saying that.
What we are saying is, if someone is going to "abuse you" over it, actually take the feedback, don't just put up a wall and not improve yourself because someone was a mean jerkface to you one afternoon.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

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Oh don't get me wrong I know a lot of the raiders aren't like that and other people get nasty too, it's the internet after all. It's just I used to see it all the time with the raiders and not so much from the other side. But hey, everyone's experience is different.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Oh don't get me wrong I know a lot of the raiders aren't like that and other people get nasty too, it's the internet after all. It's just I used to see it all the time with the raiders and not so much from the other side. But hey, everyone's experience is different.

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I raid, but I also spend soo much time helping others. I can stay for as long people get better. Example today I was helping new people in midas 1 savage, fun because people got bettter. However the dps wasn't sky rocket high and I didn't mind either way as it was just as perfect for the raid and besides when you are new in a fight you can't expect to be top on dps, since you have to adjust to your movements, dps and when to cd and when not to. However, I know assholes comes by and I wont lie, I've been pissed off at people for not doing what they are supose to do, either it's not good enough dps or ignoring mechanics, even when I tell them in a nice way. Did I outrage for nothing? Possibly but then again I'm so tired of watching out for peoples feelings because some one simply tell them in a nice way they can improve. How else you gonna improve? Have people ignore the problem then you gonna be worse by the time?Accept people trying to help, even if some of them can be assholes, still try. If you werent ''bad'' after all, no one would say anything, am I right?:P And don't worry I know what you mean and I agree with you too.

I would love a group parser. People throw the abuse card but I just find it silly in my opinion. If someone by any chance says your not doing enough damage instead of having a fit and complaining about abuse why not just get better? It's really not hard to be good at a job there are plenty of guides on this forum detailing what you should do but people act like it's so much effort to just read. If you get better you won't get abused by toxic people logic I know its hard to understand. I guess this is the result of SE creating so much faceroll content outside of savage that people don't need to get better and when something finally comes which tests people skill just a bit people can't do it some reason.

Being against the introduction of a DPS meter in the game is like saying "We shouldn't have knives or any potentially harmful object in our houses because the children might get hurt".

The parents (or the GMs in this case) just have to be careful and watch over their children so that nothing bad happens (which means, people that would use the DPS meter to insult/mock players who aren't performing that well should get reported and harshly punished by the GMs).

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Originally Posted by Wegente

Being against the introduction of a DPS meter in the game is like saying "We shouldn't have knives or any potentially harmful object in our houses because the children might get hurt".

The parents (or the GMs in this case) just have to be careful and watch over their children so that nothing bad happens (which means, people that would use the DPS meter to insult/mock players who aren't performing that well should get reported and harshly punished by the GMs).

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That's the problem. GM probably won't care and won't do anything. They will say "different opinions" and nothing happends. And we will have casual players who cannot run a single dungeng because they can get a pro-stupid-elitist-douchebag obsesed with DPS who is complaing all the fucking run about his DPS and finnaly vote kicked. And this happends more than people thinks.

One of the ways to protect this players now is avoid the use of "numbers" and be a reportable thing. Adding an in-game parse will make it official tool so valid to use in game and talk about it, and like vote kick, the "different opinion" argument comes and we will have a lot of injustified kicks and that shit more than ever. But this time, we cannot stop them becase "its a official tool" and can be use freely, even to discard/discriminate people or even kick them from dungeons, which are casual content. Now you can report people for parse you and give you numbers, it is considered as harassment and cheating. With a official parse, that won't be possible, because is a ingame feature, valid to use as argument.


I, and probably msot of the players, don't want that MMO.

At this point I'd just like to see some kind of parser implemented for a couple of weeks just to see if the community would really implode on itself.

My reason for not wanting a parser is probably a bit selfish but I'll share it anyway. I don't want it for the simple fact that it'll cause me to get tunnel vision. Even if I could turn it off I'd have that nagging feeling it was there, and I wouldn't be able to resist. It would lower my enjoyment of the game. I was so relieved when I saw that there wasn't a parser in this game.

I try to do my very best in every content I do. I look up tutorials and read guides. That is my choice though and I don't want to push others to do the same. Even if it does frustrate me sometimes when I see that someone is slacking, which is entirely possible (and quite easily too) to do without numbers. I'm much happier when I work to better myself instead of trying to change others for my sake. Take some deep breaths, chillax, and remind myself that it's just a game.


This game overall has a lovely community. When I see how rude people are to each other (on both sides) when discussing this topic on the forums, I worry about what it'd be like in game. I imagine it might even get worse.

I have no problem with SE adding it to savage content though since people say it's impossible to clear without it. I haven't tried savage, only ex primals, so I'll take their word for it.

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Originally Posted by Remus

I would love a group parser. People throw the abuse card but I just find it silly in my opinion. If someone by any chance says your not doing enough damage instead of having a fit and complaining about abuse why not just get better? It's really not hard to be good at a job there are plenty of guides on this forum detailing what you should do but people act like it's so much effort to just read. If you get better you won't get abused by toxic people logic I know its hard to understand. I guess this is the result of SE creating so much faceroll content outside of savage that people don't need to get better and when something finally comes which tests people skill just a bit people can't do it some reason.

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This ^ like the way some of these people sensitivities work. If you even mention their dps you're being mean and toxic no matter how you say it. People would rather just ask for nerfs then spend an hour smacking a dummy learning their rotation.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I don't think anyone is saying that.
What we are saying is, if someone is going to "abuse you" over it, actually take the feedback, don't just put up a wall and not improve yourself because someone was a mean jerkface to you one afternoon.

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You know there is a problem that "GitGud" doesn't address: Why should we do that for the sake of anonymous asses and bullies? Are they what high level play looks like?

(No of course not...but if the bullies are the teachers, you might get bullies for graduates, or people that just don't care.)

If we did things simply to avoid bullies no one would leave the house. If you feel cyber bullied close your eyes turn off the screen Walk away as someone once said

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Seems to me the playerbase has done just fine without a Parser all this time.

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People are using parsers. This thread is about an official in game parser. You will find not a single raid group that beat any current tier savage content without knowing their performance.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Stopped reading after this. One requirement of a raid group is someone who parses, when you put that static together. Someone is parsing. Give me a world first or a world tenth that didn't use one. Hint: you won't find one.

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So, your argument is... "parsers are necessary because people use them"?

You seem to have missed the point of my post (or that part of it at least). Whether or not they're used isn't the question. Obviously they are.

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

Some people are just obsessed with reducing everything down to numbers - "min/max" this, "optimal" that - and mistake something they want as something the game needs.

Another question is, would parsers give ammunition to those already prone to being asshats, to become even more so? Historically, in every other MMO they've been in, yes, it will. Those people already exist in this game. They even post in these forums - at least a few in this very thread.

A very real concern with many, is that those people would not keep such "standards of performance" to themselves. They would impose them on everyone else. And not just in end-game raid content. No no, in DF as well. How do I know? Because they've already been doing it - insisting that if you're in "their party", haven't studied videos on the content, and are unable to perform up to their standards, that you're wasting "their" time, and holding "them" back. Some have requested ways to lock out people they deem "unworthy" of being in "their groups" - yes, even in DF. Just spend an hour or three going back over the numerous threads and discussions archived on these forums for the last 2+ years. You'll see plenty of such attitudes on display.

What do you think those people would do if actual numbers became available to them? Do you think they'd suddenly become conciliatory and helpful? Do you think they'd wield that information respectfully and reasonably? Hell freaking no they wouldn't. They'd become even worse. Again, history - across myriad other MMOs - has proven this out, and the "seeds" are already planted in this game's community.

Give those people access to that data, and they would immediately weaponize it against other players, berating, insulting, humiliating, purely to groom their own sense of superiority, and boost their own ego. Yoshi-P is clearly aware of this kind of behavior in other MMOs, and realizes bringing that capability to FFXIV in an official manner would inevitably produce the same results. He doesn't want that crap infecting XIV's community any more than it already has. This is why he is against implementing parsers officially, and made the compromise of the SSS - which, yes, does provide sufficient feedback of whether a player's prepared to take on given content, in a purely binary, pass-or-fail kind of way.

And if you don't like the way I've depicted a portion of this game's community, hey... don't get angry at me. I don't make people behave the way they do. Ask them why they behave that way in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Give those people access to that data, and they would immediately weaponize it against other players, berating, insulting, humiliating, purely to groom their own sense of superiority, and boost their own ego. Yoshi-P is clearly aware of this kind of behavior in other MMOs, and realizes bringing that capability to FFXIV in an official manner would inevitably produce the same results. He doesn't want that crap infecting XIV's community any more than it already has. This is why he is against implementing parsers officially, and made the compromise of the SSS - which, yes, does provide sufficient feedback of whether a player's prepared to take on given content, in a purely binary, pass-or-fail kind of way

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Then you have those who won't take advice, listen to people when mechanic comes, those who tells people to get a life just because they wanna help, say it's just a game, it's my game my sub.
Ever heard of respect?
You know what respect is right? It goes both ways. If YOU as DPS is nerfing down a whole group, simply because you can't forfill your job, that one is on YOU!
No really it's on you. Don't expect people to play bit better, just so you can get your clear, it doesn't work like that. This post make it sound like healers and tank can play their roles half ass and you will be fine with it, which I highly doubt you would. I won't lie but this post made me really annoyed, because you make it sound like we should ignore problems instead of fixing it. There will be assholes with or without official parser. Just a reminder, there are people who have parser you and I'm well aware some didn't even say they did and some might have.

Read this line again and I would like you to respond to my old post to you as well.
Respect goes both ways, don't think you are the one to get only respect because you simply won't do your job. This is my respons to ''why'' an official parser might not be released as you stated, people will become more a-holes. But nah, seriously I find more players who refuses to listen more toxic than a player who calls out people numbers.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

No. Just no. This isn't just about numbers. You put a guy in a fight where BLM's for example or BRD/MCH has to move alot, they wouldn't need to move for jack shit on SSS. Put them in a fight like sephirot, thordan, midas savage etc, you will see it will ring another tone.
Example, a mnk can do insane dps on a stupid dummy, once they in a fight it will be different, with mechanics. Numbers only? What about your dps is low as 900 in a fight, then you suddenly want to use a parser or anyone else, they see it and they will probably think: Damn, this dps is low. How do I improve it? Well first, did he beat the dummy? Yes, did he do the mechanics on it? No. So this is where the parser is going to be the real deal, you look at it, find out what you doing wrong, fix it and voila you have increased the dps. There are fights you wanna hold your cds or even use them right away. It's all different from fight to fight. So numbers only? Nope..

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Edit. Before anyone else pulls of this is just a game card. Yes, I know it's just a game. However I'm paying for it, so to show off respect to players, forfill your role as a person, give, show respect, and you will get it back. The only way to do so, is actually improve yourself as a person both how you play and how you are. This goes off to anyone, a-holes or simply those who refuse to get better. Too many times many wont take advice and that's a whole reason why I stopped helping strangers, unless I know they are more than wiling to.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

[/I]And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

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Yes and no. There are endless of ways how that could been done. Echo, nerfs and simply 7 people pulling enough weight for 1 person to do less and be acceptable. Sorry that's what most of us trying to avoid, that 1 dps is slacking so it's just ''fine'' to ignore it.
Many times I've had people from different servers making alt on my server to respond to a video I uploaded 3 weeks ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5NupyOO0eU 7PLDS and 1 SCH beating seph extreme. Now why did they do that? Because their group had no deaths but got enrage on sephe xtreme with a normal party. What's your defence on that?

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

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This is way better put than my apparently "rude" posts earlier. Thanks for this, it's exactly how I feel and you expressed far better than I did.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

- Things that are true -

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The best post I've read about this. Exactly what I'm thinking but I couldn't never explain myself.

Btw forgot to add something to my reply to Preypacer.
You mention people being left out. Do you know excactly why? Because they are underperformance in the actuall content. Simple. If you see a healer who won't heal, hes not doing his job, easy to bash and complain about. A DPS doing horrible numbers, the run is slower, in case a primal fight or raid, enrage. How on earth can you simply avoid that issue. TBH. To make me think about it, it's better to leave a official parser out of the game, because like you said, there is no need right? So those who gets kicked, doesn't get included in groups don't know why, simply because even if the person is the most sweetest and kindest person, and tries to help, even being honest about the DPS numbers, there is a slight chance of not being included. Let's keep it that way, so people still wonder why they get left out or never get invited.

Let's keep it the way where many refused to take help and ignore the problem.
I'm fully aware with a official parser there might be more a-holes added to the group who already are, however, in my own PERSONAL experience, I've met way too many people who gives a shit and because of those and simply because of a such arrogant post you posted, I will keep leave those people out and wont bother help them out, because I might hurt their feelings saying they are behind on dps or failing mechanics while doing them. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

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Except that is definitively and verifiably not true. You're missing the part where parsers have existed for those 3 years and every (EVERY!!!) top group has used them. I'd argue every group that's cleared (minus maybe a couple outliers) before nerfs have had at least one person parsing. This is a large crux of your argument that's flat false.


The thing is, people want an official in game parser mostly to bring PS3/PS4 players the ability to do what the PC players have had the capability to do for ages, and that is gauge their performance as a DPS. People on PC who want to parse already are, so in reality, only PS3/PS4 players now receiving a parser would see any real change from this.

Now for the rest of your argument, it seems to me mostly more fear of abuse. As said more than once, abusive players are abusive players. They will find a way to abuse you with or without a parser. Why is parser abuse worse than non parser abuse? So what if it's another tool to use? They already have plenty of tools! Not to mention a lot of those abusers are the ones actually doing poorly. So having a parser will in many situations remove a tool for them to abuse you with.

The thing is, abuse will always be abuse. You can and should report it. GMs have been very good from what I've seen at dealing with actual abuse. Note: actual. Someone telling you your DPS is low is not abuse. It's simply stating a fact that probably hindered or blocked the group from completing the content.

I agree with what someone else said before. There will probably be an influx of abuse at the start, but that'll subside as GMs cut those people abusing it out. Although, to be honest, even an influx of abuse I don't think will be much. This is anecdotal, sure, but I've seen abusive players only 5 times in the time I've been playing, which was only a month or two after PS3 release. Maybe I'm lucky, but I feel if someone is constantly seeing heavy abuse, it's a sign that there's something you could work on. This doesn't absolve the abusers. They are still to blame, as acting that way isn't acceptable, but you can't control them. You can control you though.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

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Interesting. I've seen a lot from you this thread. You expressed a loss of desire to offer help to under performers [cause you believe most won't listen], wish for a tool to be able to pin point under performers, and you believe SSS is inefficient because it lacks the boss mechanics.

Let me ask you this then. Based on what I've seen you talk about you believe that when someone is in a group they need to preform at a certain level of skill or get out. You want them to get better, but by your own admission things like SSS and dummies won't help them. Only being in the encounter to practice with a parser will let them become better, but you don't want them in there holding you back. So how again do you expect people to improve?

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

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The easy solution to this is S-E states what the acceptable lower limit of DPS is when they release a parser and suddenly you can't weaponize the numbers and "Well you aren't meeting MY standards of play" because the player base has no say in that anymore.

If the harasser is playing that card at that point, report them for harassment and move on. We don't need those kinds of ignorant people polluting the game anyway.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases

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Is it so clear as that? Players have been clearing content without an official parser for three years. That much is demonstrably true, but it doesn't mean they haven't been using unofficial parsers. Certainly at least some groups have - the evidence may be found in many publicly available kill videos.

SE have a vested interest in improving the skill level of the player base. The better people are, the more of the content they will do and the longer the game will hold their interest (and therefore their subscription). If one defines that which "the game needs" as that which will keep its population as high as possible, then the game needs a player base that is capable of playing all of the game.

I agree that giving the player base access to officially sanctioned group parsing would put a tool in the hands of those who would abuse it (and sadly I think that that group outnumbers those that would use it to help others). In fact I am almost completely happy with the current state regarding parsers (i.e. yes, but don't talk about it except among friends), with the sole exception that it disadvantages PS4 players. So I support implementation of an official DPS readout for personal use.

For the purposes of seeing how good one's numbers are, perhaps SE could also implement an anonymised built-in leaderboard (basically an anonymous version of fflogs) that would show you where you stand relative to other players on the same job doing the same content and at similar iLvl. That would be a more useful benchmark than the other players in the party anyway.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Interesting. I've seen a lot from you this thread. You expressed a loss of desire to offer help to under performers [cause you believe most won't listen], wish for a tool to be able to pin point under performers, and you believe SSS is inefficient because it lacks the boss mechanics.

Let me ask you this then. Based on what I've seen you talk about you believe that when someone is in a group they need to preform at a certain level of skill or get out. You want them to get better, but by your own admission things like SSS and dummies won't help them. Only being in the encounter to practice with a parser will let them become better, but you don't want them in there holding you back. So how again do you expect people to improve?

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Thanks for your respons and yes I have indeed posted alot in here. So to reply to your question:
Yes to beat a certain content, let it be savage or primal.

I expect a certain level when you want to be the content, you don't need to be super top to beat it, but a certain level is far than enough to beat it.
As I've stated before in this thread, there are groups I've been for hours like in seph extreme or midas 1 savage recently. I have beat those content ages ago and I don't mind, as you said they need to improve and get better, so that's why I'm staying. However, those guys did listen, but as you mentioned and said, yes I have met a lot of players who simply refuses to listen or improve, because they keep die or not improve at all when it comes to DPS. Do I call them out? Nope, but I do tell them they have to improve or we have to replace. To be honest, I've met few of those and they know they are a screw up for the group and are willing to leave on their own, but I can sadly not say that about the players I usually meet.

There is a difference improving each run than improving after 2 hours while everyone is ahead and not willing to take advice in terms of mechanics or dps.
A way person can improve is to also admit their own mistakes and not ignore them. Another way to improve is also admit they are not doing as expected (dps wise)
How can you improve those? Take advice, practice, ASK for advice. I still stand on my opinion on SSS. Yes it gives you somewhat a pinpoint how your DPS is if you do beat it, but that doesn't mean you can pull it off in the actual fight. Many time's I've seen people who do SSS slower than another person but yet that person out dps the one who beat the dummy faster, this is a good example how it really is.

As mentioned many times. Many are indeed a-holes with their parsers, and I agree. But then you have those who refuses to get better or take advice, failing soo many times or not increasing dps each time the run the content. This is my whole point. Many in here are againts parsers because of a-holes. I'm for parser because (honestly) they need to see why they aren't involved in groups and that tool alone will help you on a long run. It can give you info where you can improve and where you shouldn't do weird stuff like popping b4b right before the boss does LB for example.

Problem is, to make it short. Many refuses to get better. Many takes offense when they are even told in a nice way to improve. It's true, you have to watch out for peoples feelings and then just socialy accept they are bad, so me or you or anyone else wont hurt their feelings. To improve you also have to deal how bad you been doing, simple as that. If you can't deal with it, then you need to understand there are people who aren't willing to help you, because you can't take criticism. I know being an asshole about isn't nice so I tell most people be nice about it and let them know.

However there is a HUGE difference between ''Your dps sucks ass, gtfo'' and ''You have a bit low dps, mind if I can show you how to improve''?
Then again you have to watch out for peoples feelings, so even being nice might hurt their feelings sadly. Parser would let them see how bad or good they are without being told. Even if you aren't one of those who get offended or tells you to fuck off, it's still a nice addition for those who want to even get better :).

And to add, many in here or people in general who are againt's parser arent interested in knowing what they do, which is a huge problem as well, knowing they ignore the problem more than trying to fix it. That's why I said those post makes me wanna not help anymore, because that's how they want it to be. I'm not saying all, but a few atleast from reading their post.

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Originally Posted by Kezy_Kaatapoh

The thing is, people want an official in game parser mostly to bring PS3/PS4 players the ability to do what the PC players have had the capability to do for ages, [...]

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Namely to violate the terms of service via third party programs that only a PC can run?

I'd really appreciate if people could finally stop using the PS3/PS4 argument. PCs are simply more capable than consoles due to the ability to freely run third party programs. As such, PC players will always be able to do more than console players, they will always have more abilities. Using this advantage however is prohibited by the terms of service and the only reason people aren't being banned for parsing right now is because SE is nice and lenient. If you actually want equality, ask SE to stop being nice, because that's what the inequality stems from. And if you don't, please just stop using the argument.

does the vested interest of "improving the player base" involve punishing those not as interested in the attitudes from the hardest, most frustrating tier of content? Why would SE win by players treating other players like numbers?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

does the vested interest of "improving the player base" involve punishing those not as interested in the attitudes from the hardest, most frustrating tier of content? Why would SE win by players treating other players like numbers?

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If you aren't interested in the hardest content you simply don't do them. People judge those who who do but not pulling enough weight.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

If you aren't interested in the hardest content you simply don't do them. People judge those who who do but not pulling enough weight.

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Player standards vary a lot with this. So do game mechanics. either the gms have to review the intrcacies of each case(which would involve more than what the combat log provides) or it gets open to a very wide interpretation by the players that can affect a lot of unintended targets.

and don't say those attitudes would stay in savage and ex trial, it can and does roll downhill and has since the game started.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Why would SE win by players treating other players like numbers?

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I do not see how implementation of a personal-use parser would enable this. Those that do not want to use it can simply turn it off like any other UI element.