The harp is a lie.

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Originally Posted by Zetonegi

Ya, but Link also had the Triforce of Courage which, if you didn't know, gives approximately infinity skill points. If I had approximately infinity skill points I'd be doing all that stuff too.

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what link did not have though, was a bow that transforms into a harp.

archer -> ranger
minstrel -> bard

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

what link did not have though, was a bow that transforms into a harp.

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Ya cause that's stupid. Link has wiped out an entire civilization before. If he thought a bow-harp was cool he would have made one by now.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Thank you for the well-drawn diagram.

Also the denial is amusing. Much more amusing are the accusations of it being a stupid idea.

It is most likely a bow that transforms into a lyre. I haven't seen anything else mentioned that is more likely to be the case based on any sort of solid reasoning or logic. Plenty of rationalizations for it not being a bow/lyre though, and very likely stemming from denial.

It isn't 100% proof, but it is definitely the most likely scenario at this point.

I for one sincerely hope it is in fact a weapon that transforms between bow and lyre, with Archer being the class that the Bard job stems from. Providing long range support in the form of DPS as well as buffs just sounds like a whole lot of fun to me. With Dragon Knight and Warrior basically being confirmed much more clearly in that picture than Bard perhaps, there really isn't going to be a necessary demand for MOAR ARC DPS, so having an Archer go Bard effectively reducing it's DPS ceiling but in turn having the ability to buff everyone on the team up or even debuff the enemy sounds much more appealing to me.

Bard is gonna be more than just sitting back and playing tunes during a whole fight. We get to snipe the enemies too?

Count me in.

After seeing that cover, I'm more excited about Bard than any other job.

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Hell, I want to pick up archer now because of the support and DD role it'll get with the Bard job.

...That doesn't mean I don't still want multiple jobs per class or class combination.

You hear me, SE!?

ah i see it now, It's not a bow that transforms into a harp. It's a bow that transforms into a quit game button. I knew they were putting in a quicker way for you to shutdown but who knew they were putting it in so soon and so efficient too it shuts down so quick the game never comes on again!

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Originally Posted by OptimalZedd

people thinking its a bow-harp didnt understand final fantasy philosophy... lol

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Oh, is that so?

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job is a specialisation of classes , so archer would become => archer+bard ? thats the opposite direction

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Wrong. The Job system is a separate system that floats above the Armoury (class ) system. Jobs are not considered direct specializations of classes. They never were. That was a community assumption/misconception. Jobs simply stem from classes generally based on the weapon that class already uses. For the future they have plans for Jobs stemming from a combination of classes - again not like a class specializing.

People really take this one artist pic way to much to heart. This may seem shocking to some but not every pic that an artist draws up in a mag is meant to be literal in every minute detail. (and people that are saying that the arrows in the bow are not to scale with the arrow in his had have clearly never spent time on concept art/non in game art.)

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Oh, is that so?



Wrong. The Job system is a separate system that floats above the Armoury (class ) system. Jobs are not considered direct specializations of classes. They never were. That was a community assumption/misconception. Jobs simply stem from classes generally based on the weapon that class already uses. For the future they have plans for Jobs stemming from a combination of classes - again not like a class specializing.

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how does it float above it? seems like replaces. You cant be a job and a class at the same time. They did say it gave a specialized role in combat, so i suppose it could be a specialized role that has nothing to do with the class attached to it, but since it will limit cross class skills, to specialize it would have to draw on its class, at least partially. and not much on archer is bard like

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Originally Posted by Orcishgrappler

People really take this one artist pic way to much to heart. This may seem shocking to some but not every pic that an artist draws up in a mag is meant to be literal in every minute detail. (and people that are saying that the arrows in the bow are not to scale with the arrow in his had have clearly never spent time on concept art/non in game art.)

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i have and while artists make mistakes, you dont really make those type of mistakes in concept art. The point is kind of to design something for the 3d or sprite people to make. Its actually less likely to be messed up, because the point is to convey a working idea to the other people.

That said, this isnt really concept art, its a pin up, however its clearly not imaginary stuff here, this is supposed to represent and sell people on the coming jobs. I highly doubt the artist was given cart blanche to make a weapon that doesnt exist in the game, or foul up the weapon that bad. even if it was a scaling problem, by the size of the bow, they arent the right size for arrows on that bow.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i have and while artists make mistakes, you dont really make those type of mistakes in concept art. The point is kind of to design something for the 3d or sprite people to make. Its actually less likely to be messed up, because the point is to convey a working idea to the other people.

That said, this isnt really concept art, its a pin up, however its clearly not imaginary stuff here, this is supposed to represent and sell people on the coming jobs. I highly doubt the artist was given cart blanche to make a weapon that doesnt exist in the game, or foul up the weapon that bad. even if it was a scaling problem, by the size of the bow, they arent the right size for arrows on that bow.

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"Scaling Problem" is relative. What you would see as a problem many artists would see as a non issue. When drawing for a video game mag cover I would not see the artist worring too much about stuff like that. I think the bow could be a bow harp or it could be a bow with extra arrows. the artist does a great job with the piece because it looks interesting. I was just pointing out how literal people here are taking a piece of highly subjective art nothing more. (I collect video game mags you would be shocked at how distorted and very much not to scale the art almost always is!) That is something that makes an artist job fun is not having to be stuck with the ridged art that is found in game (In FF14 far more than most have you looked at the art in this game? ^^)

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Originally Posted by Physic

how does it float above it? seems like replaces. You cant be a job and a class at the same time. They did say it gave a specialized role in combat, so i suppose it could be a specialized role that has nothing to do with the class attached to it, but since it will limit cross class skills, to specialize it would have to draw on its class, at least partially. and not much on archer is bard like

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No it does not replace. Replacing implies the previous is removed. Classes will remain in game after Jobs are implemented. That much was made crystal clear.

Jobs are roles one equips to excel in party play, whereas classes - while they can do well in a party - shine in a solo endeavor.

As far as their relationship to the class in terms of skill, they said that when as a class you equipped the unlocked job you would lose the ability to equip cross-class skills, however gain job-only skills. Apply this to the concept art of the alleged Bard class in that cover being the job that Archer unlocks and you can understand how, because the bow transforms into a lyre and back, it has the capacity to use all native Archer skills whilst gaining the ability to use Bard-only musical skills.

As far as how SE announced Jobs would work, there is no argument against Archer unlocking Bard. The only necessary link between jobs and classes is the native weapon of the class.

SE wanted to do something creative in a fantasy game. Bows and harps/lyres have been connected and their similarities appreciated in many ways throughout human history. It is not so difficult to imagine SE building on this and going the creative route. Hell they have Serah using a transforming bow/moogle weapon in FFXIII-2. The concept is not so foreign at all. If they made gunblades they sure as hell can make lyrebows.

The reason I find the opposition to the lyre/bow theory, especially in this thread, to be amusing is not because I simply disagree. It is because no one seems to offer up another believable reason as to why it is something else. The attempts to say it's still only a fancy bow by showing real-life bow designs are the most amusing. It is a fantasy game.

Let's look at what the lyre/bow theory has going for it:

1. Bard is one of the jobs that were announced by SE in an interview months ago. Although it wasn't certain they were the initial 7, being that the cover clearly displays the other 6 quite obviously, it is safe to assume that those are the initial release. By process of elimination, Bard is left for Archer.
2. Mages are getting BLM and WHM, and are therefore taken up based on SE's announcement of there initially being 1 job per class. Bard must go to a DoW. Out of all of them, coupled with this controversial cover art, it is logical to connect the bow to the lyre. As far as DoW weapons resembling musical instruments go, Archer takes the cake.
3. Archer has the highest base MP pool out of the DoW.
4. Latest response by community rep confirms the bow is a weapon that transforms.

If someone is going to argue against the bow/lyre theory, instead of making it based on denial or personal opinion how about they show some game-related facts that support their notion?

The level of interest that this post has generated does not convince me that it's a harp or not a harp but it does convince me that we are REALLY bored and need 1.9 badly :)

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Originally Posted by Orcishgrappler

The level of interest that this post has generated does not convince me that it's a harp or not a harp but it does convince me that we are REALLY bored and need 1.9 badly :)

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lol I can agree with that!

I just hope the Bard brings some Beer..The Bard's Tale: Beer Song.

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Originally Posted by Orcishgrappler

The level of interest that this post has generated does not convince me that it's a harp or not a harp but it does convince me that we are REALLY bored and need 1.9 badly :)

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Ain't that the truth.

The point about it being just artwork was the most valid until Bayohne decided to chime in and give it credence.

Most game related art in game related media is done by official artists for said game... It's possible that cover wasn't designed by Akihiko Yoshida, but if it wasn't they did a pretty good job emulating his style.

I can get passed Archer turning into a pseudo support/DD job, but I'd rather they did it in a way that correlated with being an archer... like special arrows. The leap from Archer to Bard is a bit much, and I think it was a poorly thought out decision, regardless of the execution.

What I can't get passed is a bow that transforms. It's right up there with Seifer calling Squall a "Chickenwuss" in how lame it is.

Mostly it suggests to me that the dev team can't cope with the armoury system in it's current form, and they can't think of a good way to get rid of it, so they are coming up with farfetched and ultimately bad ways to get around it.

"And another thing, we want real silverware in the cafeteria! No more sporks, fnives or knifoons, it's like a Dr. Seuss Kitchen in there!"

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Originally Posted by Travesty

There is nothing wrong with a ranged debuff/buff class. There is something wrong with an archer bard.

Corsair made sense. It was a gambler and the buffs and debuffs included an element of chance, and the weapon was gun. All things that fit the gambler persona. The same cannot be said for an "archer bard." Musician and archer are completely different disciplines which have nothing to do with one another. It's silly and impractical to combine them.

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Yeah I see and I agree it seems strange but I still find ArcBrd pretty cool:D. What if it makes music while the arrow get shot? :o this could give it some sense ^^ Anyway to me w/e weapon it uses, a DD/debuff job will be nice!

Proof that Archers do indeed sing: Men in Tights.

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Originally Posted by Davorok

Proof that Archers do indeed sing: Men in Tights.

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Sings pretty well in deed :D

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Originally Posted by D3aTh

Yeah I see and I agree it seems strange but I still find ArcBrd :D. What if it makes music while the arrow get shot? :o this could give it some sense ^^ Anyway to me w/e weapon it uses, a DD/debuff job will be nice!

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Thaumaturge could already fill that role, except in it's current form most debuff spells have such a long recast that they aren't worth equipping except for longer fights. (and maybe not even then... oO)

I am in favor of debuffing classes, and corsair was one of my favorite jobs in ffxi... but if the corsair gave buffs through a gun-flute it would have been a different story. The corsair made sense as a gambling gunslinger, buffs from dice, debuffs from cards and a gun for added badassery.

The notion of an archer having to stop, fold up his bow into a lyre, strum out a tune and then unfold his bow again... there is no part of that sequence that makes sense. The whole concept sends up warning flags in my mind, somewhere in the dev team someone is making bad decisions, and they need to be reigned in...

This atrocity shouldn't have ever made it this far into development. It really worries me that it has.

Meh again, I agree it's strange but seriously...... It is less than a guy debuffing with... dances...

EDIT: Don't get me bad. I just try to explain it is sad everyone is unhappy when they add real new things... I bet in 3 month everyone will want a ARCBRD in their pt and you will see comments (TP BURN ONLY) XD

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Originally Posted by D3aTh

Yeah I see and I agree it seems strange but I still find ArcBrd pretty cool:D. What if it makes music while the arrow get shot? :o this could give it some sense ^^ Anyway to me w/e weapon it uses, a DD/debuff job will be nice!

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How, IN ANY WAY, does that make sense? Firing an arrow to play an instrument is absurd.

The whole concept of sticking an instrument onto a bow to make a Bard is absurd. I mean hell, if we're gonna do that, how bout we make Pugilist a Samurai. We can give him weapons where 1 of the knuckles is a hilt, and the other is a blade, and when he holds them together JUST RIGHT, they TRANSFORM into a katana! Woo!

No. The idea is ridiculous, just like a transformable instrument-bow.

I don't have to look so hard, I can clearly see where the bow begins and the cords end. SE has some fantastic concepts and designs for Final Fantasy equipment, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell its a weapon and not a instrument.

For all you harp people... when the time comes to play music, it's going to be more obvious because now matter we compare the reality that it's a BOW with and ARROW mount like what REAL hunters use, you'll still be too suborn to acknowledge it even if we waved it right up in your grills,lol!

I'm sure you'll soon be able to sing and play you sad songs in FFxiv when the time comes...

It's not an arrow mount. I also thought it was at the beginning, but there is now too much evidence against it. It's not the right size, it's confirmed to transform, it's not the right shape to be an arrow mount etc. Trust me, I wish it was an arrow mount. It's not.

My one gil can also say to them, "it can also be a 'Composite Bow' with a Harp to make a musical kill!", lol!!! =P

Nah, SE wouldn't even waste their time on boloney, unless... (nah!)

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Originally Posted by ChronicalSin

I think its bow/harp. Like when you want to use a bardspell(song) you kinda "fling" the notes away like arrows.
Thats why there's a grip on the harp itself, right in the middle.
Pretty cool when you think about it!

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OMG I just answered to a post right above yours with almost the same IDEA,rofl! Good way to make peace with the "Harpers". I still think it's a composite bow with a design to throw you off. Crazy Japanese- making fun of the western thought patterns, intellect and rationality XD ... artist can be so abstract but very clear with their compositions and designs.

It's just an abstract design of a Composite bow that serves no function. Ofcourse those aren't arrows!

Put 'string like designs' on a Great Axe and everyone will start thinking about 'Bardudard' or 'Maraudard'. (Sigh) The way people start loosing their minds about something that won't ever be.

A Composite Bow that transforms, hmm...not a bad idea. Anything is possible but was benefits would that make in-game? If it was IRL, it would make good storage (fit it in your hand-bag ladies?). =D

PSxpert2011, if you're going to have a discussion with yourself you don't need the FFXIV forums to do so.

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

My one gil can also say to them, "it can also be a 'Composite Bow' with a Harp to make a musical kill!", lol!!! =P

Nah, SE wouldn't even waste their time on boloney, unless... (nah!)

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H

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

OMG I just answered to a post right above yours with almost the same IDEA,rofl! Good way to make peace with the "Harpers". I still think it's a composite bow with a design to throw you off. Crazy Japanese- making fun of the western thought patterns, intellect and rationality XD ... artist can be so abstract but very clear with their compositions and designs.

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O

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

It's just an abstract design of a Composite bow that serves no function. Ofcourse those aren't arrows!

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L

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

Put 'string like designs' on a Great Axe and everyone will start thinking about 'Bardudard' or 'Maraudard'. (Sigh) The way people start loosing their minds about something that won't ever be.

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Y

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

A Composite Bow that transforms, hmm...not a bad idea. Anything is possible but was benefits would that make in-game? If it was IRL, it would make good storage (fit it in your hand-bag ladies?). =D

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Crap, Spamman.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

[COLOR="ugly gay blue"]No it does not replace. Replacing implies the previous is removed. Classes will remain in game after Jobs are implemented. That much was made crystal clear.

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Replacing could also imply that it has been made redundant, which is obviously what Physic meant. Dissecting the definitions of his words instead of their meaning doesn't help you prove your point.

Allow me to present you with an anology to help you understand.

Picture this. Imagine your dad cheats on your mom, gives her no attention, and even you, her son, prefers your dad's mistress to your real mother. But by title, your mom is still your mom and is still your dad's wife. Has she been replaced? Of course she has! All that remains is her title.

Basically that's what the job system will do to your mother (the armory system). Everyone will like the job system more, and the armory system will be a vestigal appendage to the game, relegated to the sidelines as a redundant leftover of the old FFXIV.

To say that "the armory system has not been replaced" is an appeal to definitions rather than an appeal to reality.

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Jobs are roles one equips to excel in party play, whereas classes - while they can do well in a party - shine in a solo endeavor.

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People keep spouting this nonsense. I know you're just regurgitating things Yoshi said (and he says alot of crap), but I'd beg you to please assess the statements for yourself, because what you're basically saying is that they have taken the Armory System - which was the flagship feature of FFXIV - and then said "oh, yay, you can now use the armory system to solo" even though you always could. That's such a demotion of the Armory System if it's now merely employed for soloing. And anyway, you can probably solo with Jobs too since soloing is such a cakewalk.

Besides, the definition of an armory-system-user as a solo-er and a job-user as a party-animal, is such a huge upheaval of the original philosophy of the armory system. That in itself is enough evidence that the armory system has been replaced (or should I use another word since you'll start throwing Webster's dictionary at me if i keep using this one?).

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Replacing could also imply that it has been made redundant, which is obviously what Physic meant. Dissecting the definitions of his words instead of their meaning doesn't help you prove your point.

Allow me to present you with an anology to help you understand.

Picture this. Imagine your dad cheats on your mom, gives her no attention, and even you, her son, prefers your dad's mistress to your real mother. But by title, your mom is still your mom and is still your dad's wife. Has she been replaced? Of course she has! All that remains is her title.

Basically that's what the job system will do to your mother (the armory system). Everyone will like the job system more, and the armory system will be a vestigal appendage to the game, relegated to the sidelines as a redundant leftover of the old FFXIV.

To say that "the armory system has not been replaced" is an appeal to definitions rather than an appeal to reality.



People keep spouting this nonsense. I know you're just regurgitating things Yoshi said (and he says alot of crap), but I'd beg you to please assess the statements for yourself, because what you're basically saying is that they have taken the Armory System - which was the flagship feature of FFXIV - and then said "oh, yay, you can now use the armory system to solo" even though you always could. That's such a demotion of the Armory System if it's now merely employed for soloing. And anyway, you can probably solo with Jobs too since soloing is such a cakewalk.

Besides, the definition of an armory-system-user as a solo-er and a job-user as a party-animal, is such a huge upheaval of the original philosophy of the armory system. That in itself is enough evidence that the armory system has been replaced (or should I use another word since you'll start throwing Webster's dictionary at me if i keep using this one?).

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lol gifthorse.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

...

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While I agree with your position on redundancy and replacement via jobs, I don't think your personal attacks on Noctis is going to help anything.

If anything it just gives him fuel to discount you.

That being said I agree with just about everything else you've said. The representation as jobs to be used for party specific roles and classes designed for solo is an incredibly weak one.

More than anything I am frustrated by the language barrier we face, the localization team does great work, and I am very thankful for them, but it's really hard to get a feel for what the Dev Team is thinking and aiming for.

Part of me keeps hoping that something is getting lost in translation, but more and more I fear the dev team is either extremely limited in what changes they actually can implement... or they just aren't a very creative bunch.

Its really hard to get passed the idea that they are shoe-horning a job system into a class system that doesn't really work with it, then shoe-horning a job into a class that has no correlation with it... and to top it off, shoe-horning a harp into a bow.

I'd wager it's a fair guess that Yoshi is a bit overworked right now... but someone at SE needs to man up and tell him this idea isn't good.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Its really hard to get passed the idea that they are shoe-horning a job system into a class system that doesn't really work with it, then shoe-horning a job into a class that has no correlation with it... and to top it off, shoe-horning a harp into a bow.

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I think that about sums it up.

I'm gonna take the "wait, try and see" approach rather than the "I already know what's gonna happen" approach when it comes to jobs. I'm excited for them, especially after that cover.

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People keep spouting this nonsense. I know you're just regurgitating things Yoshi said (and he says alot of crap), but I'd beg you to please assess the statements for yourself, because what you're basically saying is that they have taken the Armory System - which was the flagship feature of FFXIV - and then said "oh, yay, you can now use the armory system to solo" even though you always could. That's such a demotion of the Armory System if it's now merely employed for soloing. And anyway, you can probably solo with Jobs too since soloing is such a cakewalk.

Besides, the definition of an armory-system-user as a solo-er and a job-user as a party-animal, is such a huge upheaval of the original philosophy of the armory system. That in itself is enough evidence that the armory system has been replaced (or should I use another word since you'll start throwing Webster's dictionary at me if i keep using this one?).

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Well, to be fair, according to the player polls, people wanted massive changes from the original philosophy of the game. So I would not at all be surprised if the Armoury system largely goes by the wayside.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

No it does not replace. Replacing implies the previous is removed. Classes will remain in game after Jobs are implemented. That much was made crystal clear.

Jobs are roles one equips to excel in party play, whereas classes - while they can do well in a party - shine in a solo endeavor.

As far as their relationship to the class in terms of skill, they said that when as a class you equipped the unlocked job you would lose the ability to equip cross-class skills, however gain job-only skills. Apply this to the concept art of the alleged Bard class in that cover being the job that Archer unlocks and you can understand how, because the bow transforms into a lyre and back, it has the capacity to use all native Archer skills whilst gaining the ability to use Bard-only musical skills.

As far as how SE announced Jobs would work, there is no argument against Archer unlocking Bard. The only necessary link between jobs and classes is the native weapon of the class.

SE wanted to do something creative in a fantasy game. Bows and harps/lyres have been connected and their similarities appreciated in many ways throughout human history. It is not so difficult to imagine SE building on this and going the creative route. Hell they have Serah using a transforming bow/moogle weapon in FFXIII-2. The concept is not so foreign at all. If they made gunblades they sure as hell can make lyrebows.

The reason I find the opposition to the lyre/bow theory, especially in this thread, to be amusing is not because I simply disagree. It is because no one seems to offer up another believable reason as to why it is something else. The attempts to say it's still only a fancy bow by showing real-life bow designs are the most amusing. It is a fantasy game.

Let's look at what the lyre/bow theory has going for it:

1. Bard is one of the jobs that were announced by SE in an interview months ago. Although it wasn't certain they were the initial 7, being that the cover clearly displays the other 6 quite obviously, it is safe to assume that those are the initial release. By process of elimination, Bard is left for Archer.
2. Mages are getting BLM and WHM, and are therefore taken up based on SE's announcement of there initially being 1 job per class. Bard must go to a DoW. Out of all of them, coupled with this controversial cover art, it is logical to connect the bow to the lyre. As far as DoW weapons resembling musical instruments go, Archer takes the cake.
3. Archer has the highest base MP pool out of the DoW.
4. Latest response by community rep confirms the bow is a weapon that transforms.

If someone is going to argue against the bow/lyre theory, instead of making it based on denial or personal opinion how about they show some game-related facts that support their notion?

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replace : to take the place of especially as a substitute or successor

that is the definition of replace. Jobs will be taking the place of classes in most party based content. This is what the developers said.
Jobs actually literally replace your class, they describe it as, instead of being pugilist you can be monk. An example of jobs not replacing class would be:
monk/pugilist In this case the job acts as a higher heirarchy of pugilist. another example would be
Pugilist-monk, where monk is a specification of pugilist.

The problem with a bard archer isnt that its the worst idea ever, in fact it is not a new idea. the problem is, there is nothing about archer that is bard like, anything that makes archer bard like is coming from the job only. Its a bit weird to level a class to say 20, then be forced into another path, that has nothing to do with what you did for 20 levels.

anybody could see that the barcher is basically a hybrid of an archer and a musician, but wait, there is no musician class, there is no connection to archery and music, in fact i think one would be hard pressed to find many famous archers who are also accomplished musicians. Nothing about archer to date even bares a resemblance to bard. Now, if these were totally different classes, unlocked by leveling base classes, it would make sense, but they are supposedly extensions of your current classes, and if they are not, then why exactly are they locked to classes anyhow?

While barcher may not be trash, the heirarchy they are setting up is illogical, especially with barcher, unless it is bard in name only and has very little ties to actual music.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

PSxpert2011, if you're going to have a discussion with yourself you don't need the FFXIV forums to do so.

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At least he wasn't arguing with himself.

Yes he was!

No he wasn't.

Yes he was.

Wasn't!

Was!

Monty Python

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Originally Posted by Travesty

Well, to be fair, according to the player polls, people wanted massive changes from the original philosophy of the game. So I would not at all be surprised if the Armoury system largely goes by the wayside.

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Fine, then SE should leave it by the wayside, but what they shouldn't do is string people along saying the armory system still has a role to play (if you'll pardon the pun) when it obviously doesn't.

Keeping it in the game even though they obviously hate it, and don't even make any attempts to work within the confines of the system (see: barcher), is just a false presentation of their intentions and ideas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Fine, then SE should leave it by the wayside, but what they shouldn't do is string people along saying the armory system still has a role to play (if you'll pardon the pun) when it obviously doesn't.

Keeping it in the game even though they obviously hate it, and don't even make any attempts to work within the confines of the system (see: barcher), is just a false presentation of their intentions and ideas.

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Totally agree.