The Black Mage Rotations

Fixing the back-to-back Flares under UI3 has a reasonable chance of resulting in some sort of impact to double-dip mechanics, although any actual impact is still speculation.

Agreed. Although they've confirmed they are only fixing the back to back Flares, I am a little scared it may "fix" the overall ability to double-dip as you mentioned. If that were to occur then the AoE rotation I've posted would probably need to be scrapped and a Fire II AoE rotation be adopted.

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Originally Posted by Mecan

The Dreadnaughts are more important to kill than the Rooks so convert is reserved for the Dreadnaughts. My team has no issue DPSing the Rooks down and we use Mage Ballad during this so I often swiftly spam multiple Flares without much problem or Convert. There are many different ways to have effective AoE Rotations and often you can work as a team to execute them.

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You can kill in any order you want but our FC, in all three groups (soon to be four) kill the Rook first and foremost and then kills off the low Dreadnaught.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Fixing the back-to-back Flares under UI3 has a reasonable chance of resulting in some sort of impact to double-dip mechanics, although any actual impact is still speculation.

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I hope it's only a second or two cooldown added on Flare.

Not sure if you're attempting to keep the opening post up to date, but you should prioritize Thundercloud procs over Firestarter procs. Either way, you aren't using your next Fire until both are used. Using Thunder III first allows a higher change of procing another Thundercloud. There's no benefit to use Firestarter first under normal circumstances.

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Originally Posted by monochromeMirror

Not sure if you're attempting to keep the opening post up to date, but you should prioritize Thundercloud procs over Firestarter procs. Either way, you aren't using your next Fire until both are used. Using Thunder III first allows a higher change of procing another Thundercloud. There's no benefit to use Firestarter first under normal circumstances.

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I am attempting to keep it up to date and may have forgotten this! Thanks for pointing it out. I believe it was discussed several pages back as well. I'll update the OP.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Fixing the back-to-back Flares under UI3 has a reasonable chance of resulting in some sort of impact to double-dip mechanics, although any actual impact is still speculation.

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But the double dip mechanic is simply based on effects happening 'on impact' rather than right after casting.
The way I see it, it's a small compensation for missing out on all potential Firestarter procs which is caused by the same design.

One will affect the other and I'd certainly give up double dipping to Fire III on every proc. Though I doubt they're going to buff BLMs anymore, especially since they just said that lower dps will be 'brought up to BLM damage' recently.

I think this might effect the UI3->F3->(Quick)Fire seeing as how both double Flare and the quick Fire rely on UI staying a bit longer than intended.

Sorry for jumping in with this thought so far after the fact, but I wanted to pose a question about how people deal with a firestarter proc that happens as you start the umbral phase.

When I get those firestarter procs as I am already casting blizzard 3 I have started using transpose after I cast thunder 2 (and wait for the final mp tick.)

I haven't done any real math with this beyond the straight forward U3+Fire3 damage modifier compared to the A1 Damage modifier, but that in itself feels significant enough to at least make it a viable strategy when the situation occurs.

That's what I do. If it's better than waiting 0.5 seconds after your last Fire cast to see if Firestarter procs, I have no idea. You might want to consider using Blizzard or Scathe depending on when the last mana tick was, though, rather than just waiting two seconds doing nothing.

For the AoE rotation: If there is a BRD in the party you get the best damage per GCD if you have them maintain Ballad while you cast Fire III > Flare > Blizzard III > (repeat). In doing this you are basically just using Fire III to activate AFIII, get many Flare casts and MP back with Blizzard III after a tick of Ballad. It's great for WP SR's, shaved about 30s off each pull for our group when the BLM switched to that rotation from the "standard".

Haven't tested how it would play out just with Fire III > Flare spam as I'm not sure if Ballad would give enough MP to maintain that.

^ Bliz III only cost 79 mana under Astral III, while Flare needs 250+ mana under Astral III.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

^ Bliz III only cost 79 mana under Astral III, while Flare needs 250+ mana under Astral III.

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Thanks :) So definitely FireIII > Flare > Blizzard III for top AoE DPS (requiring Ballad).

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Thanks :) So definitely FireIII > Flare > Blizzard III for top AoE DPS (requiring Ballad).

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I don't agree with this. With Req up, the standard Tranpose>Blizx2>FIII>Flare rotation will pull off of tanks real, real quick already. I find myself waiting on the MP tick from Ballad more often then off UI when doing what you suggest.

Plus, Ballad = lower Bard damage. When running WP/T4, Req+Standard AOE rotation will kill stuff much quicker then Ballad+F3>F>B3.

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Originally Posted by Rainsford

I don't agree with this. With Req up, the standard Tranpose>Blizx2>FIII>Flare rotation will pull off of tanks real, real quick already. I find myself waiting on the MP tick from Ballad more often then off UI when doing what you suggest.

Plus, Ballad = lower Bard damage. When running WP/T4, Req+Standard AOE rotation will kill stuff much quicker then Ballad+F3>F>B3.

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I did the math in another thread but I'll put it here so you can see Ballad does indeed pull ahead. If your tank is losing hate, however, I'd assume they weren't using Flash enough. It takes a little getting used to but you can sync your spells up with the Ballad tics so you never end up waiting (they come at set intervals).

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Ballad still allows the BLM to DPS harder than with Requiem due to allowing Flare to be used more frequently. For Wanderer's Palace Speed Runs (for ease of numbers I'm not counting AF/UI, spell speed gear or abilities that can only be used once per pull that both rotations would see equal gains from (swiftcast Flares basically)):

Over 2 BLM rotations:

With Ballad up: Fire3>Flare>Bliz3>Fire3>Flare>Bliz3 will produce 1400 potency of damage in 22 seconds. In that time 9 Wide Volleys will produce 792 potency of damage. That's 2192 potency over 9 GCD's (243 potency per GCD). 2192 potency in 22 seconds is roughly 100 potency per second. The BLM needed to cast 6 times.

With Requiem up: Fire3>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2>Fire3>Fire2>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2 will produce 1679 potency of damage in 28 seconds. In that time you could get about 10 Wide Volleys and 1 Rain of Death off for 1200 potency of damage. That's 2879 potency over 11 GCD's (261 potency per GCD). 2889 potency in 28 seconds is roughly 102 potency per second. The BLM needed to cast 11 times.

What we see here is that Ballad allows for the BLM to deal about the same damage in less casts leading to faster kill speed overall. If both rotations were to go for similar lengths Ballad would pull ahead. Once we factor in Skill Speed and Umbral Ice/Astral Fire Ballad will pull ahead even more due to needing to cast more Fire II's under Requiem and Astral Fire greatly favoring higher potency spells. Under Astral Fire we see Fire II getting 180 potency (80 increase) versus 468 potency for Flare (208 increase). (I'm going to go over the math again now that I have more time to include AF and UI bonuses/restrictions)

Additional benefits to this are that it allows a tank to spam Flash to maintain hate without question and allows a WHM to cast Holy in between Cure's without the need to look at their MP. It should be noted that with more Flares being cast you will be generating more enmity which does indeed require the tank to be using Flash on cooldown. With Ballad already applied you save an additional 3 seconds between pulls as well.

tl;dr: In WPSR with BRD & BLM, BRD should full time Ballad (outside of boss fights, Requiem for boss fights), BLM should cast Fire3>Flare>Bliz3 (repeat) for the best DPS. Ballad also allows Flash and Holy spam.

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What's with the random Fire 2 between Fire 3 and Flare?

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Originally Posted by KrayZee

why is that? my Fire2 with 3AF does ~450, my blizzard 2 does ~280
its still better even if the recast time is 0,5 seconds longer

you can at least burn your mana with that before using flare.

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Some people ignore fire 2 not because Bliz 2 is superior, they do it cuz Flare is superior. A bug (yes I do think it is a bug, one that needs to be fixed) allows you to benefit from the cast time reduction reduction twice. This means you can got from Umbral Ice 3 > Fire 3 > Flare very quickly.

Personally I think Flare on every Swiftcast on single target is superior to just just spamming fire 1. Also, you guys do know that Thundercloud's damage depends on the Thunder DoT that is currently on the mob right? This means that you will not get Thunder 3's damage just cuz you use Thunder 3 during a Thunder 2's DoT proc, if you know what I mean. If you don't then whatever.

In the end though, you are free to do whatever the hell you want, I don't really care.

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

Some people ignore fire 2 not because Bliz 2 is superior, they do it cuz Flare is superior. A bug (yes I do think it is a bug, one that needs to be fixed) allows you to benefit from the cast time reduction reduction twice.
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Also, you guys do know that Thundercloud's damage depends on the Thunder DoT that is currently on the mob right?

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Yes, you will Thunder 3 damage on Thunder 2's proc. The tooltip has been proven wrong.

Also, if they ever fix the double quick cast then we should also get instant Firestarter procs as well (as I said in another thread).
Both delays are based on the design of effects triggering 'on impact' which includes the travel time of the spell. I believe this is intentional.
However, I would give up double quick casting for instant Firestarter procs any day.

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

Some people...

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I can't bring myself to to use Flare in a ST rotation because the complete dump of mana causes you to have to sit there and do nothing for up to 3 full seconds. Because of this, I don't feel the few hundred extra damage from Flare gains you anything in terms of DPS. In fact, I think it's a DPS loss.

As for Thundercloud procs doing damage based on the DoT that is currently up, are you sure about that? I'll test it out when I get home and confirm/refute.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

As for Thundercloud procs doing damage based on the DoT that is currently up, are you sure about that? I'll test it out when I get home and confirm/refute.

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I even just retested this. It definitely gets Thunder III extra damage and duration.
I remember saying what Peanut did after launch, because the tooltip is misleading. I also wanted an excuse to use Thunder III because I liked the visual. Someone said to test it myself and I swallowed my words.
You shouldn't take my word for it, but it has been proven for a while now that Thundercloud proc's damage isn't based on the dot it applied off of.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I even just retested this. It definitely gets Thunder III extra damage and duration.
I remember saying what Peanut did after launch, because the tooltip is misleading. I also wanted an excuse to use Thunder III because I liked the visual. Someone said to test it myself and I swallowed my words.
You shouldn't take my word for it, but it has been proven for a while now that Thundercloud proc's damage isn't based on the dot it applied off of.

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Cool. I'll test it as well when I get home but that makes a lot more sense to me than having it based off of the DoT that was already up. That would be pretty silly IMO.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

What's with the random Fire 2 between Fire 3 and Flare?

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As said just before the comparisons, AF&UI were left out and the numbers are based strictly on their base value. Because of this you have 2.5 seconds of doing nothing while waiting on Transpose's 10s timer. A Fire II allows you to fill that time with its 3s cast time.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

I can't bring myself to to use Flare in a ST rotation because the complete dump of mana causes you to have to sit there and do nothing for up to 3 full seconds. Because of this, I don't feel the few hundred extra damage from Flare gains you anything in terms of DPS. In fact, I think it's a DPS loss.

As for Thundercloud procs doing damage based on the DoT that is currently up, are you sure about that? I'll test it out when I get home and confirm/refute.

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No, you dont flare with full mana. You use it at the end of your rotation with a swiftcast (hard casting not worth it for ST), since at 251 piety you will have 300 mana left over after your 5th fire, every time. Also consider the following - Firestarter procs on your 5th fire, you go into your bliz/thunder downtime, transpose and use the proc for 70% full damage... or you can use that swiftcast for another flare, keep Astral 3 up, and deal full damage with your proc after the flare, then transpose.

Its very easy to tell which is superior, in practice and theory.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

As said just before the comparisons, AF&UI were left out and the numbers are based strictly on their base value. Because of this you have 2.5 seconds of doing nothing while waiting on Transpose's 10s timer. A Fire II allows you to fill that time with its 3s cast time.

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I guess you're only using the base values so that you can provide an approximation. That's fine. However, you can't then turn around and change the rotation based on approximate values! Adding an extra Fire II will significantly lower the damage of that rotation.

Also, you seem to have forgotten that these are AoE rotations. B3 and F3 are single-target attacks. For 1 target, the B3-F3-Flare combo is slightly higher PPS (potency per second). However, for 2 or more targets, the B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose combo leaves it in the dust.

I'll do the math with the following assumptions:
- Having the full buff (UI3/AF3) raises your damage to 180% of normal (+80%).
- Having the opposite buff (UI3/AF3) lowers your damage to 70% of normal (-30%).
- Having the opposite buff reduces your cast time by half.
- You're able to get half-casting time on the next two attacks.
- Mana ticks occur every 3s.
- GCD is 2.5s.
- Foe's Requiem increases spell damage by around +15%.

I'm also ignoring startup time so that we can focus on the average PPS of a rotation.

Quick Potency Table (debuffed/normal/buffed):
F1/B1: 105 | 150 | 270
F2/B2: 70 | 100 | 180
F3/B3: 154 | 220 | 396
Flare: 182 | 260 | 468

Mage's Ballad Rotation

(from AF3) Blizzard 3 > Fire 3 > Flare > wait for MP

Time: 9 seconds
B3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
F3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Flare (fast) casts in 4.0/2 = 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.

This is a total of 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 = 7.5s. However, because you have to wait for MP, this takes exactly 9s.

Damage:
B3 (AF3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
F3 (UI3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
Flare (AF3) does 468 potency and is multi-target.

PPS = (468 x targets + 154 + 154) / 9

For 1 target, this does 86.2 PPS.
For 2 targets, this does 138.2 PPS.
For 3 targets, this does 190.2 PPS.
For 5 targets, this does 294.2 PPS.
For 7 targets, this does 398.2 PPS.
For 9 targets, this does 502.2 PPS.

Foe's Requiem Rotation

(from AF3) Blizzard 2 > Blizzard 2 > Fire 3 > Flare > Transpose > wait for MP

Time: 12 seconds
B2 (normal) casts in 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
F3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Flare (fast) casts in 4.0/2 = 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Transpose is instant but takes around 0.5 because of animation.

This is a total of 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 0.5 = 10.5s. However, because you have to wait for MP, this takes exactly 12s.

Damage:
B2 (UI1) does 100 potency and is multi-target.
B2 (UI2) does 100 potency and is multi-target.
F3 (UI3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
Flare (AF3) does 468 potency and is multi-target.

PPS = ((100 + 100 + 468) x targets + 154) / 12

For 1 target, this does 68.5 PPS. Adding +15% gives 78.8 PPS.
For 2 targets, this does 124.2 PPS. Adding +15% gives 142.8 PPS.
For 3 targets, this does 179.8 PPS. Adding +15% gives 206.8 PPS.
For 5 targets, this does 291.2 PPS. Adding +15% gives 334.8 PPS.
For 7 targets, this does 402.5 PPS. Adding +15% gives 462.9 PPS.
For 9 targets, this does 513.8 PPS. Adding +15% gives 590.9 PPS.

well it might be obvious that b2 -> b2->F3 deals more Aoe dmg then a pure b3-> f3 combo but its kinda extremely impractical. the whole blizzard thing is the followup to a flare when ur oom to regain mana and set up a second or third flare, by this time u are prolly pretty high on the enmityscale and the last place u want to be is definatly right between all ur opponents 0.o the only thing that will keep you from dying in such a case will be quelling strikes and that one will be on cd after a use for at least 1-2 trashpacks and if ur really unlucky wont keep at least a few opponents from turning to you at least for 1 attack, especially when ur continuing to built up enmity by spamming b2 0.o

my fav combo is and ever will be f3->3*f2->QS->RS->f2->QC->flare->convert->f2->b3->f3->flare(hi ether->b3->f3->flare (if u don't care about using pots for random trash )->transpose->b1->f3->4*f2->b3->f3->(4*f2(depending on opponents remaining health))->flare. 2 no aggro RS flares in rapid succession, there definatlly isn't anything faster to burn a big group of opponents to ashes in no time in this game.

What is that, about 30 or more GCD's worth of stuff you're listing? Two things, first: the fact that it takes that many spells to kill any group of enemies shows that the rotation is weak. Second: the B2's provide nice timing, but I can double flare or F3 -> flare after a B3 just the same. It is just about maximizing damage. There are very few mobs that it is dangerous to stand in the middle of.

If your tank can't keep hate off of you when quelling strikes is down, first, yell at the them. Then ask them to use cover. It is all fairly moot if you kill the packs quickly enough.

it depends on the WHM how long it takes for the opponents to drop dead, usually the last trashpack in wp (whole trash from 2nd to 3rd boss) is dead during the 2nd flare.

and sorry but my RS flares usually deal 2,1k dmg, thats quite a lot even for a ilvl90 pally spamming flash 24/7. and i'm never would trade one of my rs flares or even a rs af3 f2 for a crappy b2.....

edit: btw. I usually don't need manasong during my combo for about 3 flares, so foes song could be up for me as well, negating all of the above described advantages.
its simple logic: flare is the highest hitting AoE spell in the game, that in mind the best possible dmg output against groups of mobs lies within spamming multiple flaes in rapid succession under the influence of all the dmg buffs available for as much flares as possible.

that being said u gotta calculate the possible number of speedflares u can achieve in one interval of RS and fill the gaps with the second strongest blm aoe cast: f2. and ofc keep af 3 up before using flare.

jugling with that information u got ur prioritys straight up:

casting RS af3 flare > keeping af3 up for a flare > speed up flare > buff up flare > fill gaps with rs f2 >>>> fill in gaps with b2 maybe.

the b2 combo helps keeping up sustained AoE dmg without the need of external manasources but it definatly isn'T the most efficient way to deal max amounts of dmg in a minimum of time! that being said u can even skip the f2 after ur convert but u wont find a way to fill in this gap with anything else since u definatly wont get a 3rd af3 flare into a single RS but u still can drop it if u believe ur opponents will drop dead after the 2nd flare.

the only time the b2 combo could be more efficient is the one trashpack where convert is on cd (in our group this usually is the trashpack right before the 2nd boss in wp) since you can only get a double flare there if u use a hi-ether and will definatly need to rely on transpose after that if ur bard isn't playing manasong but even there it highly depends on pala cds and whm dmg output if u even need a 3rd flare.

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Originally Posted by Cha0zb0rn

my fav combo is and ever will be f3->3*f2->QS->RS->f2->QC->flare->convert->f2->b3->f3->flare(hi ether->b3->f3->flare (if u don't care about using pots for random trash )->transpose->b1->f3->4*f2->b3->f3->(4*f2(depending on opponents remaining health))->flare.

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You're arguing a completely different point. I was only comparing the two flat rotations based on the two Bard song effects. Of course when you pop all of your CDs and pots, it's going to increase damage output. That's exactly what you should do in a real situation when they're up. But what do you do when they're down? In your case, your flat rotation starts after the Transpose (and I'm guessing that the B1 should be B3).

I use the B2 combo in WP SR all the time. The only thing you have to do is watch out for AoEs, which isn't tough. You can always side step after the B2-B2 or after Flare because you have a small time buffer.

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Originally Posted by Cha0zb0rn

flare is the highest hitting AoE spell in the game, that in mind the best possible dmg output against groups of mobs lies within spamming multiple flaes in rapid succession under the influence of all the dmg buffs available for as much flares as possible.

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Then why, oh why, are you using a rotation that uses so many F2 instead of just using more flares? Non-F2 rotations have already been shown to be the strongest.

We will miss you, double flare out of Umbral 3. Greatest of all time AOE rotation. RIP.

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Originally Posted by Youmu

No, you dont flare with full mana. You use it at the end of your rotation with a swiftcast (hard casting not worth it for ST), since at 251 piety you will have 300 mana left over after your 5th fire, every time. Also consider the following - Firestarter procs on your 5th fire, you go into your bliz/thunder downtime, transpose and use the proc for 70% full damage... or you can use that swiftcast for another flare, keep Astral 3 up, and deal full damage with your proc after the flare, then transpose.

Its very easy to tell which is superior, in practice and theory.

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I'm not sure standing and not casting anything for 3 seconds while you wait for a tick of mana after Flare is worth it is what I'm saying. I've tried the rotation and I can't work Flare into the ST rotation in any capacity for a DPS gain.

Its during your umbral regen downtime - you're not losing much there.

It's only worth it to use Swiftcast Flare with Convert or mana potions up as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

I just did some parsing using this rotation versus the rotation I've outlined. All parses were done for 2 minutes nonstop on 3 targets. I used the DPS dummies in Whitebrim (Coerthas) for these parses. Here are the results:

Rotation: Fire III ==> Fire II (spam) ==> Flare ==> Transpose
Note: Initial Flare of rotation was followed by Convert + a second Flare. This was repeated on CD.
Result 1: 398
Result 2: 387
Result 3: 402

Rotation: Fire III ==> Flare ==> Transpose ==> Blizzard II ==> Blizzard II
Note: Initial Flare of rotation was followed by Convert + a second Flare. This was repeated on CD.
Result 1: 448
Result 2: 456
Result 3: 454

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you say this can be repeated on CD what do you mean? only could down i have is raging strikes and swiftcast i dont understand what ur trying to say

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Originally Posted by lordbraska2

you say this can be repeated on CD what do you mean? only could down i have is raging strikes and swiftcast i dont understand what ur trying to say

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Initial Flare of rotation was followed by Convert + a second Flare. This was repeated on CD.

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Convert is the CD being referenced. He's saying that you can start with
Fire III ==> Flare ==> Convert ==> Flare ==> Transpose ==> Blizzard II ==> Blizzard II
This is a double flare with convert. You can do it whenever convert is off CD.

why would you even do this

fire3-fire2 fire2 till oom is fine is it not? my dps during ak with just that is about 200-250 n that is decent

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Originally Posted by lordbraska2

why would you even do this

fire3-fire2 fire2 till oom is fine is it not? my dps during ak with just that is about 200-250 n that is decent

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Fine? Yea, I guess. It's just not the best. The quote you used in your last post had the OP's test, which included 3 results showing the dps difference between the two rotations.

You can test it yourself and decide. Honestly, I didn't take the OP's word for it when I found this, but after testing I concluded that it was indeed the optimal AoE rotation.

Omitting Fire II always wins out. It's not even that close. I use Fire II only if I'm worried about enmity. So I would use it in AK, but I would use the Flare rotation in WP if the tank can hold hate. It really shines in Turn 4.

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Originally Posted by lordbraska2

why would you even do this

fire3-fire2 fire2 till oom is fine is it not? my dps during ak with just that is about 200-250 n that is decent

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some people strive for more than "decent"

i understand that but they say turn 5 needs 280 min dps. i did normal fire 2 AoE rotation in ak last night and was getting 2-250 dps. only problem with b2 is u have to be in the middle of mobs to do it.

what if you do this
Rotation: Fire III ==> Fire II (spam) ==> Flare ==> Convert ==> Flare ==> Transpose ==> Bliz2

For AOE am I the only one that bliz 3 > flare > flare > transpose > bliz 2 > bliz 2 > flare > flare > transpose...? With the occasional convert/swiftcast flare when available.
The only down time is at the start waiting for bliz 3 mp to tick and after transpose for bliz 2. And if done correctly both flares have 1/2 casting times.