The anti FFXI job/class comparison thread

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

defined classes = min/maxer rule the game with elitist mindsets and long party waits

ffxiv classes= anyone can fit any role, no wait time.


only thing has failed is the community forcing the ffxi mindset.
And yes, ffxi jobs in ffxiv will pretty much make ffxiv the same as ffxi.
I hated ffxi in how things ended up. Long waits to form a part or to join a party. Said wait taking months of playing 6 hrs a day everyday.

Sorry no thanks. I like the system just ppl need to stop force feedinbg the ffxi mindset while at the same time orduing ppl NOT to compare ffxiv to ffxi. When infact they trying ti force ffxiv to be ffxi.

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Late reply, but there was very little work put into balancing FFXI's classes and fixing leveling, at least up until I quit mid-TOAU. Unique classes with defined roles does not always imply imbalance; take a look at how well WOW has been balancing classes, and they technically have 30 of them.

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again:

It would not make it into "the same game with different content." Or if it does in your opinion, then FFXI is also the same game as FFI, FFIII, and FFV. And each one of those games was very successful. Not to mention FF Tactics, FF Tactics Advance, FF Tactics A2, and Final Fantasy X-2, as well.

^Those are all the same game then, right?

Point: Using the same jobs will NOT make FFXIV into the same game. It's just the job system. It's not really making a clone of the entire game. I don't get why people don't understand that.


EDIT: By the way, I'm not upset, not trying to flame anybody. Just trying to show a point. Hopefully nobody takes this too aggressively.

I am sick of everyone have the same moves. I hope this job title thing let's you equip what weapon you want. Ya know, like be a "black mage" weilding a bow. I think it'd be cool, but we need defined roles, not the mess we have now.

I don't even know where to begin with this one...

OK, on the topic of jobs. You really need to understand that class design walks a fine line between what we have now (which is pretty open) and jobs as we saw them in FFXI. The subjob system should not really be seen as something to emulate, because that was probably one of the most broken systems I've ever seen to date. It's also testimony to why one must be really careful when introducing multi-classing into a game. If you need examples, look at what Ninja and Utsusemi did to overall game balance, party dynamics and general play style. Suddenly single-handers all needed to sub Ninja for dual wield and everyone needed Utsusemi to "survive" (in reality, cheese through single target spells). It also created the ultimate prevalence of multi-hit weapons for TP building and increasing overall damage done (another huge mistake).

That being said, I'll be frank and say the only reason I would even want the classic jobs here is because I identify my characters with certain classes. A GLD with some magic equipped a Red Mage does not make. I also do not want them to destroy certain job concepts due to FF's generally poor selection of classes when split into roles (which is why XI had one real healing class and 15 damage dealing classes, with a couple of poor sods in the middle that got screwed into healing because that's what everyone needed for parties).

The more I think about it, the more I want to see the devs go with building the job system on top of what we currently have over renaming classes and setting roles in stone. Let a Paladin set skills to give himself an edge wielding a 2-handed sword, or a Black Mage the option to equip a bow if they like the look of it. So long as the classes work I think it would be fine.

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That's a community issue and the proof is in the pudding:

When PUP in XI became very very strong, there was an immediate surge in PUPs.

When DNC became one of the best soloers, guess which job seen an surge?

When BLU became overpowered (4-8k unbuffed Quad-Conts), guess where everyone flocked that previously abandoned the job?

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Developer action heavily influences the community. PUP was introduced as an incomplete concept. The only thing that saved it was the myriad of buffs the class got (even now, I question whether anything after the original fixes were warranted). DNC and BLU are purported to being children of the tons upon tons of suggestions to fix Red Mage to make that job something more than a buff-bot and heal-bot.

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blm who sat for 90% of the fight, to get up and do one skill per mob.
rdm relegated to refresh whore, and debuffer in the first 10 seconds of the fight for most of thier life.

this is a great battle system? really? you want to recreate this?

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Quoted for emphasis.

There are positives and negatives to both sides.

In ffxi all classes where highly defined, and most classes had 2 rolls. A Sp/XP party roll and a Endgame roll. Drastically different play styles in each. example: in over half of endgame blm's where not Damage dealers they where crowd control.

But in FFXI everyone wanted only the best. Loldrg at endgame... sam does more dmg, better at skill chaining and feeds the mob 1/10th the tp. Sorry guys only 1 brd can't find the 2nd nice try with the party though. LMFAO WHM in a xp party rdm onry. Mnk salvage onry!!!, thf "STAND BACK ONLY ONLY HIT THE MOB ONCE AND USE ACCOMPLICE Stop feeding it tp, and stop getting hit your dmg is pointless and you are using mp", "/NIN onry I am not going to cure a war/sam sub nin now or gtfo of this event.. Fine /breakpearl" LMFAO bst ;; <= right there is FFXI's class system. Every class had a critical job.. for the most part (bst sucked in all groups outside missions), but all classes only had that job. Do something out of that job you where basically a detriment to everyone else.

FFXIV there is nothing defined in stone, and that is the problem people without a clue to make something are lost completely. Without guidance on how to build jobs a lot of people will not be able to do it, makes no sense it can be figured out with like 20mins of thinking but still it will not happen.

Honestly I want to see FFXIV's system with the cross class everything and add more class defining traits, or class specific buff trait you can buy with guild marks that only work on that class. Issue is even with that little bit classes will be required to do X. Honestly in the big shells now, standards and requirements are almost already starting to be set with required abilities and such.

So honestly it is pick your poison.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Late reply, but there was very little work put into balancing FFXI's classes and fixing leveling, at least up until I quit mid-TOAU. Unique classes with defined roles does not always imply imbalance; take a look at how well WOW has been balancing classes, and they technically have 30 of them.

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The trick in WoW was making the different specs acceptable for PvP and endgame raiding. This was mostly painful when it came to the hybrids, since during the early days they were the ones that had (not wanted or decided to, but had) to spec to heal to be of any use. This is why now you have the hybrids with multiple specs that are acceptable to some degree.

As long as SE can achieve something akin to that, I think we'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The trick in WoW was making the different specs acceptable for PvP and endgame raiding. This was mostly painful when it came to the hybrids, since during the early days they were the ones that had (not wanted or decided to, but had) to spec to heal to be of any use. This is why now you have the hybrids with multiple specs that are acceptable to some degree.

As long as SE can achieve something akin to that, I think we'll be fine.

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And SE will hopefully do the same kind of ongoing class balance with FFXIV. After how ridiculous WOW's second expansion got in terms of class balance, Blizzard put class balance at the top of the list of things they have to do, and it's been pretty nice. All DPS/DD classes are within 5% of each other, with some exceptions that are patched within 2-3 months, all healers perform well in small scale stuff and only differ in large scale fights, and tanks are viable everywhere, with strength in different areas. They even took steps to ensure that the tank:healer:DPS ratio of specs is close to 1:1:3, the standard party model in WOW; they have 4 tank specs, 4 healer specs, and ~14 viable PVE damage specs.

I really hope we can see that kind of effort put into class balance for FFXIV.

What..? <<

I throw in 12 cents.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

defined classes = min/maxer rule the game with elitist mindsets and long party waits

ffxiv classes= anyone can fit any role, no wait time.


only thing has failed is the community forcing the ffxi mindset.
And yes, ffxi jobs in ffxiv will pretty much make ffxiv the same as ffxi.
I hated ffxi in how things ended up. Long waits to form a part or to join a party. Said wait taking months of playing 6 hrs a day everyday.

Sorry no thanks. I like the system just ppl need to stop force feedinbg the ffxi mindset while at the same time orduing ppl NOT to compare ffxiv to ffxi. When infact they trying ti force ffxiv to be ffxi.

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Thing is, it's not a black-or-white, "either/or" situation, as some seem to be characterizing it.

I would welcome the flexibility of a system like XIV's... However, I do not welcome it to the extent that identifiable roles fly out the window because everyone can be/do everything at the same time.

That results in one thing: homogenization.

In fact, it would likely lead to even fewer options perceived as "viable" than you saw even in XI, because everyone shares the same overall pool of available skills at the same time. The only differentiating element is what your main class is at a given time.

In XI, for each Job, there was a set of different job/subjob combinations, as well as gear/food setups based on what role you were playing for that particular setup. Some were rather rigid (which was more about people having tunnel-vision than with the game itself). So, for each of the 20 jobs, you had a series of different ways you could play it. Sure, some setups were preferred or even demanded in some circumstances.. but again, that was people trying to keep the game as predictable as possible without deviating from what worked (e.g. what the walkthroughs and guides said).

I have zero doubt that the same scenario will play out in XIV. The only difference is, it'll be even more limiting than in XI. Why? In XI, even if you elected to "follow the online guides" and build out your character by following a template to the letter, you were still playing a job that had a specific playstyle and a defined role, or multiple roles in some cases. If you preferred mages, no matter what your setup, you were always ultimately a Mage, and that's the role you were chosen for. A Mage wouldn't typically be asked to fill a primary melee DPS role (save for some oddball out-of-the-ordinary circumstances).

In XIV's system, because everyone has access to the same pool of skills, regardless of class, min/maxers will eventually end up reducing the number of unique builds down to a handful of "standard optimal builds", likely built around filling traditional roles.

When that happens, I bet people will be wishing XIV had something closer to XI's system, where at least there was more variety by virtue of 20 unique jobs with several possible subjob combos for each, instead of a relative handful of builds due to XIV's setup.

I don't think SE needs to "lose" the openness of its current system. I do think they need to bring in more restrictions on secondary skill use, or, perhaps some enticing and very substantial benefits to combining "like" skills (dd with dd, magic with magic, etc)...

This way, people can still find a playstyle or role they enjoy playing at a given moment... such as in a party, doing a HNM, etc... but still have the flexibility to switch it up if they need, or want to while soloing, etc.