Pipe Dreams: Expanding the healer pool

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Originally Posted by Mychael

I have to disagree, because in a party, you only need one tank and one healer; the rest of the slots are DD. By having several healer jobs, parties would be forced to choose one over the other unless the job had a specific identity other than healing.. Since you need multiple DD jobs in a party, they're a lot less competitive. Yes, you might do better if you stack all of one, but so what if one of five DD aren't the optimal class? But if there were two healers, anything that gave either an advantage (whether real or just invented by popular opinion) would make the class the ONLY OPTION in the closed minds of FFXIV players.

With respect to AoE heals, there would be obvious situations where AoE low healing would make that class the ONLY OPTION (if a mob spams AoE), and situations where a high-value single-target healer would be paramount to success (anything else). That's not doing anything for making interchangeable healers of equal efficacy.

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So, it's okay to choose between DPS classes, but not okay to have a choice in tank and healer classes, is what you're getting at?

What mental gymnastics got you there, and in this scenario why can't we just have one DPS class and that's it? Why does the game need variability in DPS classes, but not in tank and healers?

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Originally Posted by Mychael

because in a party

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good thing we're not limited to single party content in ARR, right?!

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Originally Posted by Mychael

Since you need multiple DD jobs in a party, they're a lot less competitive. Yes, you might do better if you stack all of one, but so what if one of five DD aren't the optimal class?

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lol, this guy

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Originally Posted by Mychael

But if there were two healers, anything that gave either an advantage (whether real or just invented by popular opinion) would make the class the ONLY OPTION in the closed minds of FFXIV players.

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you mean like pld vs. war? so people would prefer one healer over the other situationally, depending on the content? which is how it already works with tanks and dps? and somehow this *isn't* okay for healers?

face. palm.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

With respect to AoE heals, there would be obvious situations where AoE low healing would make that class the ONLY OPTION (if a mob spams AoE), and situations where a high-value single-target healer would be paramount to success (anything else). That's not doing anything for making interchangeable healers of equal efficacy.

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because, once again- the only content we'll see in ARR is single party content, right? and god forbid we see single-party content requiring TWO HEALERS which might actually benefit from bringing along two different kinds of healers with different strengths?

not trying to be rude, but... you don't have a lot of raiding/endgame experience, do you?

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Originally Posted by Mychael

I have to disagree, because in a party, you only need one tank and one healer; the rest of the slots are DD. By having several healer jobs, parties would be forced to choose one over the other unless the job had a specific identity other than healing.. Since you need multiple DD jobs in a party, they're a lot less competitive. Yes, you might do better if you stack all of one, but so what if one of five DD aren't the optimal class? But if there were two healers, anything that gave either an advantage (whether real or just invented by popular opinion) would make the class the ONLY OPTION in the closed minds of FFXIV players.

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I'm going to Disagree with your disagreement. there needs to be many more options for viable tank and healer jobs/classes. while a party may only need 1 tank. In my experience it is often that one key role that you lack. Its something XI. and to a slightly lesser degree 1.0 both suffered.

In 1.0 there were days where i'd often see 4 or 5 shouts for the same thing by different groups but all of those groups needed the same thing often a tank. It became slightly less problematic with the pld buffs but still existed. in XI though there were times where you would sit in whitegate 5/6 in an exp party for sometimes a couple of hours just hoping to find a tank because there werent enough options.

true with healers as well in 1.0 you'd do some primal dungeon whatever you're whm would drop to go to bed and you'd struggle to find another healer because it was the only option.

They could've made a Bard a healer but I don't know why Archer connected to bard. :P

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Originally Posted by fusional

good thing we're not limited to single party content in ARR, right?!

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I never said you were limited. Are you suggesting that there is no more single-party content?

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Originally Posted by fusional

lol, this guy

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If one out of six of DD jobs aren't exactly what you need, then your losses are <17% at max. If your healer is geared toward AoE heals (as someone suggested earler), or healing over time, but the mob is doing spike damage on one player, then there's really only one option. I don't see how that's funny. >.>;

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Originally Posted by fusional

lyou mean like pld vs. war? so people would prefer one healer over the other situationally, depending on the content? which is how it already works with tanks and dps? and somehow this *isn't* okay for healers?

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I don't think it's okay for DD or tanks either, but this topic was on the creation of new healing jobs, rather than the balance of old jobs.

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Originally Posted by fusional

lface. palm.



because, once again- the only content we'll see in ARR is single party content, right?

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I addressed single-party content only--you already called me out on that yourself. ;) With large-scale raids, it really doesn't matter how your healers work; if you have only low-potency healers, the quantity can make up for a lack of high-volume healers. If you have a lot of high-potency healing, they can spread out and kind of accomplish the same thing. Of course there could be an advantage to having different healers with different strengths, but I don't see it as essential for a raid as they're all serving the exact same purpose of regenerating HP.

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Originally Posted by fusional

and god forbid we see single-party content requiring TWO HEALERS which might actually benefit from bringing along two different kinds of healers with different strengths?

not trying to be rude, but... you don't have a lot of raiding/endgame experience, do you?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

So, it's okay to choose between DPS classes, but not okay to have a choice in tank and healer classes, is what you're getting at?




What mental gymnastics got you there, and in this scenario why can't we just have one DPS class and that's it? Why does the game need variability in DPS classes, but not in tank and healers?

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With DPS, the different types are (at a basic level) ranged, magic, and melee. You could even consider sub-divisions such as piercing, slashing, blunt, etc, or combinations (if RDMs in XI were actually able to melee with En-spells in XI, Enhancement Shamans or Paladins (don't they get 10% light damage and some light magic?) in WoW). The mobs have several different defenses for each of those. Healing, at a base level, is always going to give someone their health back. En masse (i.e. a raid/endgame event), it doesn't really matter what denomination over what amount of time--100 every second will equal out to 500 every 5 seconds, etc, whereas different types of attacks will not necessarily balance out.

I think it's a good idea to invent multiple kinds of healing, but I don't see a plausible way to differentiate between them where either 1) they're all not doing EXACTLY the same thing or 2) one becomes the only option.

That said, there is already competition among DD classes, but I think that imbalance is something people typically complain about, not try to increase. Why should we create it among healing classes?

If someone was suggesting a job that reduced HP loss by some other mechanic than directly "Player regains XXX hp," I'd be all for it--such as a class that specialized in damage prevention.

EDIT: Zantetsuken suggested something like this above--this I could approve of.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Bishop (2nd PGL job - inspired by FFTA) uses "Preventative Healing" - Healing spells recover a % target's current HP - can over-heal up to 120% of Max HP. (this style of healing is good for preparation for big battles, or to keep a tank healthy - it's potency drops greatly as the target loses HP)

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'm going to Disagree with your disagreement. there needs to be many more options for viable tank and healer jobs/classes. while a party may only need 1 tank. In my experience it is often that one key role that you lack. Its something XI. and to a slightly lesser degree 1.0 both suffered.

In 1.0 there were days where i'd often see 4 or 5 shouts for the same thing by different groups but all of those groups needed the same thing often a tank. It became slightly less problematic with the pld buffs but still existed. in XI though there were times where you would sit in whitegate 5/6 in an exp party for sometimes a couple of hours just hoping to find a tank because there werent enough options.

true with healers as well in 1.0 you'd do some primal dungeon whatever you're whm would drop to go to bed and you'd struggle to find another healer because it was the only option.

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I don't know that this was due to a lack of available options. I think a lot of people just don't WANT to tank or heal.

I'm not sure introducing some new types of healers would actually fit into a game like Final Fantasy. As countless people have already said, there was really just ONE fully-fledged healer in the franchise, which could heal efficiently without (most of the time) the help of another healing class.

Even if I find the idea appealing, and I respect the thinking behind that idea, I'm not sure "copying" whatever system like this one into ARR would be beneficial for it, not to mention it would kind of betray the spirit of the franchise about healers (and Yoshi-P wanted something that players would actually recognize as a true Final Fantasy like in the old times).

How I could imagine something like this is some kind of compromise and it somehow reflects what was already there throughout the franchise numbers :

You've got a WHM as the party healer, he's your average player, he can heal all right through most of the content without major issue.
At one point in the boss fight, things get a bit complicated with the healing (a special phase in the fight that put a lot of pressure on the healer due to a spike in damage taken by your party members), and he would need a little bit more healing power to save his party.
That's where the, let's say, Red Mage (or any other hybrid heal/DPS) comes into action.
He cannot really heal on his own but he can help the WHM with healing, without losing his DPS when things get better and the WHM can take over again without help.
It allows your party to take another DPS instead of a second WHM and have sufficient DPS power to overcome the challenge.

If you have a very very good WHM, you can even take the liberty to either get a full DPS geared RDM or even completely take another class/Job to DPS.

I hope you can read through all this (I apologize if it looks like a wall of text), and understand this is just my opinion that I'm sharing with you guys. :)

There can only be ONE true healer!!!!!!

Mobs being weak to different types of damage is probably the main reason why there are so many DPS choices.
Magic Damage,
Piercing,
Blunt,
Blade,
Etc.

WoW is the only other MMO I've played for any length of time, but I did like the diversity of their healing. Not all classes were exactly the same early on (I couldn't say about now since I haven't played since WotLK) and it was nice to see how say a Paladin healer, who was more direct healing focused, paired up with a Druid, who was more HoT based.

It would be nice to see another healing type, but it should be something that complements WHM with a different skill set, and probably most importantly, be a class that fits into the lore of the world.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

She is a bard. And she hates you too. >.>

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:D - Her main purpose in battle isnt being a Bard, also unlike Dragon Age FF series already has bard jobs and they are 100% one with their music - not spread across many disciplines.


Like saying I'm a warrior, but I can program as well. Does that mean you should title me a programmer? It wouldn't do the title justice because first and foremost I would be a warrior. So, I dont hate her, her specialization is "bard" which means it isnt her main purpose. You can say that to FFXIV bard too but then I would say "wtf" its a job and they should be like their jobs not look like little cherries on the class, Bard is just proof of a forced class to job system, imo. (Of course I know some people like the Bard as a archer too, I dont disagree that you can't be two things but what you are called is what you should be most at - and Bard in FFXIV is an Archer, not a Bard).




On topic :D


I agree with you, I think Hamlet is a good source of here look you werent this class so gtfo. Also being able to switch jobs in dungeon means that you'd be leveling multiple classes AND being forced to play them (even if you hate them) just because its like alright everyone turn into PLD so we can get through this bosses next move.


If anything I think only your soulstone of your class should be able to turn on and off. Never allowed to switch classes, it ruins hybrids by forcing hybrids to their best situation and kicking them out for their nots (since hybrids cannot be better then their parent specialization classes).

Cant remember will we be able to switch weapons in dungeons in ARR?


Edit: Also while WHM is obviously meant to heal if you gear right or just have good patterns and monster types you can do some pretty sick damage. So WHM are not restricted to just curing (though of course that is why they are usually called). In a sense WHM is not a pure healer, and like WoW I dont see the issue introducing new healers.

So long as they feel and play different I think its good - by nature of playing and feeling different they will end up having some content they do better/worse but it shouldn't be so pronounced that they are -never- invited to do something outside of that specialization (like PLD and non-EG content).