On "Hardcore"

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Originally Posted by Rollan

This game sucks.

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That is quite unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by Helius

I think it has more to do with the gaming industry changing. Since so many people are starting to play video games, a company needs to design their games to cater to everyone, especially the more casual gamers which would encompass the majority (or at least a very significant portion) of their player base.
If the game was designed as you said, with ridiculously overpowered bosses, complicated systems, etc. The players who aren't as dedicated to the game would be no chance to ever experience that content, and knowing the nature of people, they would complain about it, and state that it isn't fair, which would lead to a lot of people quitting the game.
That's just how I see it at least.

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I agree with this. So many times I've heard "I pay too so I have the right to have a chance to do everything so it should be nerfed so I can do it". Developers solution is: Make stuff fairly easy, but make sure they take time to complete.

I'm by no means a hardcore gamer saying that finding people with same time schedule and can work around real life stuff like work etc that the challenge for casual player's like me. But if your lucky enough to find people like that you can accomplish allot of content over a period of time with setting date's to do it like on weekend events with them. The difference between us is really only the time we both can put into the game casual players just take longer to get to the same point as the hardcore gamer that doesn't always mean we are not as good as hardcore we just can't put that much time needed to reach the point were hardcore gamer are at.

Feel like i'm waltzing into a minefield..

I'm not very young anymore. So i've seen Hardcore change meaning over time much as the OP outlined.

When used to describe a Game it was used to describe a high risk high reward style of gameplay. A current example would be EVE-Online. Where a loss means ship gone. and not keeping a clone updated meant skill loss on your escape pod going boom (Skills gained over RL time)

It morphed some to describe players, People who were well prepared, skilled, focused and equipped and also had great knowlage of what they were doing. And generally kicked ass.

Now its used to describe amount of time spent. However for some reason if someone spends alot of time, but isn't "Awesome" in some way they are not hardcore.

Either way i'm not a big fan of the current "definition" of hardcore floating around. When i hear hardcore i almost hear nothing because i find its current meaning says nothing to me. Skill is skill, In eve-online, we had a Corp (LS/Guild) mate who had at most 2 hours a day to play. and was still one of the best pilots i knew. Prepared, skilled, sharp. "Hardcore" Interceptor pilot.

More time means more practice, which is definately helpfull, But it doesn't equate to skill or difficulty exclusively.

Also, I'd like to comment about life and gaming. Just because a person can play alot, does NOT mean they lack a life, nor does someone who can't play alot mean they can't be skilled, or put the effort in. In my opinion when adding either claim to a post shows a level of ignorance. If it takes someone a year to finish with limited time what others did in a month, still shows effort. And the person who could do it in a month doesn't mean they lack anything else in life.

Since this discussion usually includes such blanket statements i thought i should put my thoughts about it. Because its this type of comment i find exceedingly rude.

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Originally Posted by indira

I'll take Fun content over hardcore or casual.

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I just really liked this comment... ^^

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

From what I understood, hardcore was about risk and difficulty. I remember game modes where if your character died, that was it, you had to reroll. I remember systems that seemed so complicated (D&D says hi, for me anyway) that you actually had to be smart in order to do well. And then there were bosses that were so stupidly overpowered, you had to be extremely proficient to actually win. More or less, this is my image of hardcore as I recall it. A place where few would bother treading, and fewer would have anything to show for it.


But somewhere along the way I keep hearing about other things being hardcore, that don't quite fit what I remember. Things like low-drop rate content, super rare items, lottery type gear upgrades...etc etc. But for me, as a player, anyone can achieve those things with luck. Heck anyone can achieve those things with time. So, honestly, can it really be called hardcore? Like I said, hardcore as I remember it filtered out a lot of ppl. It was never a question of luck and time, although they did play a factor in your survival/accomplishments. From what I read and heard, it was flat-out survival of the fittest. You were either good enough/smart enough to do it, or you weren't.


So with that said am I crazy? And if not, is that the kinda hardcore content ppl are looking for? Or are they looking for time-sinks? Or are time-sinks and hardcore synonymous, and I just never understood the whole hardcore thing?

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This sounds kinda like good ol' CoP. You know, pre insane nerf. I liked that. It was hard and could've been frustrating at times, but I really liked that. It made it feel oh so sweet when I finally finished it.

This is the kind of hardcore content that I wanna see.

I wish someday, somewhere around this vast sea of horrible drop rates or insta-gratification games, we can find something like CoP again.

Nowadays "Hardcore gaming" is seen by mindless grinding and repetition by a lot of players, which is fact isn't, that's just pure "fake difficulty".

Time consuming =/= hard. It's just boring.

Being hardcore it's more about the risks of failing than the time.

Hopefully SE will get past the low drop rate way in 2.0 adnd have it as soemthing to work for but not be dragged out. Rather then completly hardcore, and more of a challenging casual blend.

XI had some aspects that simply took to long for those gamers who work full time jobs and have busy lives.

THings may take time to work at but shouldn't be unreachable.

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

You sir seem a bit Butthurt ? Did i strike a never ? And as it was already mentioned in the post above yours, there is no correlation between being hardcore and being skillful at a game, the two are not mutually exclusive to one another, one can be hardcore and have absolutly 0 skills as far as downing bosses, positioning, and truly being a skillful as far as combat.

Here is a question: "You got a random boss, that drops BIS weapons, and has no pop timer, you can run him until you go blue in the face, but he has a 1% of dropping the weapons, who will get them first ? The casual player who can spend 8-10 hours a week, or the hardcore player who plays 8-12 hours a day ?

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sorry but not everyone shares the same view on what hardcore means, that is exactly why this thread was made, some think it means time played others think it means dedication and skill, i personally have always lumped it in with dedication and skill. In fact I think that was the original meaning and it has since started adopting time played by the masses of baddies out there.

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Originally Posted by Sasagawa

Hardcore means both time sink and the ability to fell the hardest bosses in the game

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Agreed. It also means that people actually plan and structure what they do in game. Just because they have a lot of time doesn't mean they want to waste it. Hardcore people know the quickest way to do X and the most efficient way to complete Y. Hardcore people are the ones who complete content quickly not because they have the most time to spend on game necessarily, but because they always plan to be ahead of the curve content wise. They're always working on their gear, their gil, and their stats. When the new content comes out, they've already got their group together, they go out and kill it and go back to making sure they're OP'ed for the next round.