After Dawntrails abject Failure of a Story, there need to be serious Consequences

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Originally Posted by PassinLay

LMAO. Balmung OUT OF ANY WORLD is OPEN for TRANSFERS.

And you are linking me that as proof the game is thriving.

LMAO.

You're the same kind of person to show me the login queue and be like "see !!! there's always a queue to log in the game is always full and congested !!!"

please get a clue i'm begging LOL

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Sorry but Im not going to reply to your ridiculous take anymore when you can't even use capital letters correctly to post.

And just so you know, the reason being is because they moved to Aether, where the "raid community" is stationed. Did you not check my world? It's still very much congested where you can't even walk anywhere without people popping up in front of you because they don't even load completely.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

How am I not debating in "good faith", and when have I ever contracted myself? Most of the people here want to cling to one bad thing and roll with it as a way to get the dev team "fired" when without them, we wouldn't have gotten this far in the first place, how is that "good faith"? Is it good "faith" to ignore previous numbers, reviews and/or praise because one thing you don't like comes about? Everyone says their posts are constructive criticism, yet call for the fire of Yoshi P and the entire dev team. Do you really expect me to see this posts in "good faith", yet mine is not when I disagree? All of your posts are the ones who are tedious.

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It is not your position, it is your style of argument. I absolutely do not want to see Yoshi P go either, because I see so many more downsides to that than upsides, but just that I do not agree with the OP article does not mean I am going to defend the use of bad arguments against OP. Over the course of this thread, you dismiss instead of dismantle, issue denials instead of counterpoints, and such.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Sorry but Im not going to reply to your ridiculous take anymore when you can't even use capital letters correctly to post.

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oh no you really got me there lmao

actually trolling, I sent you statistics that you refused to acknowledge and went in full denial about, 3 different people told you you were wrong about it, and now you go "wow you cant even use capital letters lmao"

ya you really got me there I'm beat, you sure showed i was wrong

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

It is not your position, it is your style of argument. I absolutely do not want to see Yoshi P go either, because I see so many more downsides to that than upsides, but just that I do not agree with the OP article does not mean I am going to defend the use of bad arguments against OP.

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I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "style of argument". And what "bad arguments"? If you mean debunking the steam "myth", then show me the true numbers of the non-steam members. If you give me that, then I will accept that argument. Or is it the fact that other MMOs have shut down due to lower playerbase or mixed reviews? But we have WoW to contradict that, which is a fact and not a speculation. I fail to see what I have said that was "bad" or "wrong". The story is bad? That is subjective. An opinion. A difference of taste. So again, please tell me.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

... but giving constructive criticism in a respectful way is the way to do it.

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I did give out respectful criticism at first, but then came all the enlightened poets who proclaimed that everyone hating the msq is jsut an illiterate cavemen and who are seeing depth and nuance when there isnt any.

I'm done being nice.
I'm done debating what has been debated for months now.

There is no question about the writing that has not been answered or identified as pure garbage.

I don't want 8.0 to turn out like this, I don't want FF14 to "go to hell" like WoW did.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

I did give out respectful criticism at first, but then came all the enlightened poets who proclaimed that everyone hating the msq is jsut an illiterate cavemen and who are seeing depth and nuance when there isnt any.

I'm done being nice.
I'm done debating what has been debated for months now.

There is no question about the writing that has not been answered or identified as pure garbage.

I don't want 8.0 to turn out like this, I don't want FF14 to "go to hell" like WoW did.

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This:

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

It's been almost three months, there has been hundreds of threads, negative reviews andhours and hours of essays analysing every possible detail of Dawntrails writing and its myriad of problems.

And I think it's safe to say that the Story this time was an absolute abject failure that warrants serious consquences.

For a game that advertised itself as the "Story-MMO", the story this time around did some serious damage to the game's reputation.

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Is not "respectful criticism". "I didn't like the story, so I think it's ruining their reputation and they have to have serious consequences". You are basically saying they should be fired because you didn't like the story. If you had started with "In my personal opinion, the story is lackluster, here are the reasons why", then yeah that is respectful criticism. But actively saying there need to be "consequences" for this? ....No.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "style of argument". And what "bad arguments"? If you mean debunking the steam "myth", then show me the true numbers of the non-steam members. If you give me that, then I will accept that argument. Or is it the fact that other MMOs have shut down due to lower playerbase or mixed reviews? But we have WoW to contradict that, which is a fact and not a speculation. I fail to see what I have said that was "bad" or "wrong". The story is bad? That is subjective. An opinion. A difference of taste. So again, please tell me.

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Firstly, valid sample size statistics are not myth. And I'll note that calling them that would be one example of a bad argument, since you asked me to point one out. Next, putting the burden of evidence on me to provide numbers over the totality of a population because you refuse statistical approximation is another antipattern, and therefore a bad faith argument. It would instead be far more reasonable for PassinLay to ask you to provide statistics in support of your position of at least equal sample size and validity to the ones they used to support the opposite position.

And for a third -- WoW literally DID get bought out by Microsoft and fired and replaced so much of its staff including development leads, the writing lead, and the very CEO of the company. WoW only started its present recovery after doing everything and more that the OP article is calling for, so using WoW's revival as somehow proof that those are things you don't need to do, is logically invalid -- which makes your insistence on using it anyway, another bad argument.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

When I heard that Yoshi-P would ALSO be the director of FF16, I was worried if the quality of FF14 would suffer for it, and unfortunately I was right to worry.
The lack of oversight this story had is obvious to everyone.

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It's even worse, he oversees the whole CS3 now, basically. So even more games in addition to 14 and 16.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

Don't waste Yoshi-P's time on side-rpojects that get "underperforming sales".

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I am afraid that's another problem entirely: namely, that SE needs to stop negotiating idiotic exclusive deals with Fony and then go surprise pikachu because PS5 didn't sell nearly as enough as expected. And it's about to get worse with the PS5 Pro debacle.
Go on Steam right away, it will sell just fine (it is even in TOP 10 of Steam right now despite all of the idiocies above).

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

It is clear that the current writers don't have the skill or talent required for this game and need to be replaced or even outright fired.

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Facts.

With "At first" I meant right after I finished the MSQ which was like a week after early-access.
Here is my very first criticism I wrote after finishing (July 4th):

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

The problem isn't that we got all that.

The problem is that Wuk Lamat is a textbook-case of "Mary Sue":

- Getting the majority of the screentime and dialog, making other characters severely underdeveloped (example: Zoraal Ja's goals and motivations are mentioned in like 10 lines in total) or Gabool Ja speedrunning his redemption arc in order to not steal WukLamats spotlight.

- getting plotarmor against Gabool Ja and half an army and taking him out, despite being fought off effortlessly before.

- No serious characterflaws (not likeing alpacas or being seasick doesnt count, or is even more embarassing, considering she's a 6'6 buff warrior, absolute cringe)

- She is never forced to do a morally grey decision, best example is with the red-armored HokYuj. Before they fight, some random fucking bird just attacks all of the sudden, so WukLamat can heroicly "save" her enemy and befriend them".
Imagine what kind of interessting dilemma she could have faced, if she had to kill in self defense, but her status as spotless hero is saved by coincidence, --> no character progession.

Textbook-case of "Mary Sue".

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Is this "respectful" enough for you? I even put in a concrete example for you do defend if you're so inclined.

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

This:
If you had started with "In my personal opinion, the story is lackluster, here are the reasons why"

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Learn to read, I already said there are hundrets of threads who already gave out the exact "respektful" criticism you demand.
I will not write another essay with my personal opinions because that's redundand at this point.

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

Firstly, valid sample size statistics are not myth. And I'll note that calling them that would be one example of a bad argument, since you asked me to point one out. Next, putting the burden of evidence on me to provide numbers over the totality of a population because you refuse statistical approximation is another antipattern, and therefore a bad faith argument. It would instead be far more reasonable for PassinLay to ask you to provide statistics in support of your position of at least equal sample size and validity to the ones they used to support the opposite position.

And for a third -- WoW literally DID get bought out by Microsoft and fired and replaced so much of its staff including development leads, the writing lead, and the very CEO of the company. WoW only started its present recovery after doing everything and more that the OP article is calling for, so using WoW's revival as somehow proof that those are things you don't need to do, is logically invalid -- which makes your insistence on using it anyway, another bad argument.

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Again, Steam is an extremely small portion of the playerbase. And I know, it is actually impossible to see the entire playerbase because only SE can see those numbers. We only have Yoshi P's statement that the game is still doing well. That is the closest we have. You cannot just focus on steam and ignore the rest of the playerbase and use that as the game is dying. That is a bad argument. I even forgot that most people use the PS5 too, 90ish% of the Japanese playerbase actually use PS5, then even had a liveletter and showed controller vs. Keyboard and mouse and the fact that most Japanese typically do not own a personal computer. There is also the new Xbox playerbase to consider as well. Steam does not account for them either. It is impossible for me or PassinLay to provide accurate statistics, so using that as an argument is invalid.

Yes, WoW did get bought out, but my main argument is it did not get shut down and is still going on. Which it is. Which is fact. And no way a "bad argument". If WoW, one of the most popular MMOs of all time can still continue on despite being bought out by other investors is proof in itself that a simple bad review or smaller playerbase for FFXIV is not making it in "danger of shutting down."