Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

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Originally Posted by aiqa

Even when completely ignoring WAR, 37% behind the tank (DRK) that people geneally considered properly balanced is a bit weak yes. And that was in a good situation for PLD. In dungeons it had about half the sustain. You can't balance content properly if tank A has half the sutain of tank B.

I guess it mostly depends on the target you set for balance. If you set your prefered target as pre-6.X PLD, pretty much any healing from all tanks is to much. And even DRK would need a big nerfs. My prefered sutain is about DRK levels, or slightly higher. To reach that level PLD very much needed some improvements.

So yeah, very easy to see more then "omg WAR OP" in those graphs.

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DRK sustain wasn’t considered poorly balanced in ShB though, everyone agreed that TBN was strong but that DRK had relatively weak sustain outside of that. If anything people point to ShB DRK as an example of what modern tank sustain should look like

So if we take ShB DRK as the peak, or somewhere around it you could maybe argue PLD is slightly weak but it more shows that WAR even then was too strong

DRK is only considered bad now because every tank has gotten TBN but better with less cost and they also have more alternate sustain as well

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Originally Posted by mallleable

They could just add a moderate regen to Bloodwhetting if you take damage, and then add the life steal effect to Chaotic Cyclone, and Inner Chaos. That way, the heal potency can be a bit more fine tuned for single target vs. aoe.

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Would love to see them lean more towards making WAR the regen tank:

Instead of a flat heal by storm path, let it grant a minor heal buff that you maintain (lets say 100 potn), which can by maintained also by mythril tempest

BW/RI grants stacks of another regen buff (120 potn/10 sec), each attack grants another stack and refresh the duration, but the maximum stacks are limited to 3 only

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

BW is terrible design.

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You're right. It needs to be upgraded to BW2 and AoE heal. If the same reskinned dungeon pulls aren't changed or that aspect of the gameplay updated, I could care less if they gave me 3 stacks of it so I never needed a healer in dungeons again. Most dungeon healers are dps mains trying to level their healer for the new achievement mount, so they don't know how to heal anyway. So many complaints about dungeon BW when dungeons are all just one-way hallways people spam for xp. BW is balanced in raids and works great in tandem with OT HOC or TBN so healers don't run out of mana trying to babysit auto-attacks, that's all that really matters at the end of the day. Good design unlike Cure 1, Freecure, and Glare spam :p

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Originally Posted by Lyth

To be honest, I'm still at a bit of a loss as to what the current 'target audience' for tanking is looking for as a challenge. What's your proposed skill check? How do you differentiate a skilled tank from an entry-level tank? It's not DPS, because tank DPS is underwhelming and most of your hotbar space is dedicated to defensives. It's not timing mitigation, because you invuln-swap everything and have on-demand burst healing. It's not positioning, because a lot of fights are self-positioning and your melees probably already have learned how to compensate for your positioning errors even in the few cases where the game even allows you to make them. It just feels like a lost cause at the moment.

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It could be that you're at a loss simply because it doesn't exist. My interpretation is that they make most of their decisions based on mass appeal, which would make the target audience potentially everyone.

I don't know how accurate it is but I heard this savage tier's clear rate is somewhere between 4-10%. There was no discussion about participation rates, but assuming this is close to true that would indicate the vast majority of players aren't looking for a challenge at all, and that at this point XIV is pretty much a casual/social MMORPG. There is a small carve out for the people seeking more of a challenge, but it's very unlikely that those extra components ever establish a prominent role outside of savage/ultimate content. (dps checks, mit checks, etc).

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It could be that you're at a loss simply because it doesn't exist. My interpretation is that they make most of their decisions based on mass appeal, which would make the target audience potentially everyone.

I don't know how accurate it is but I heard this savage tier's clear rate is somewhere between 4-10%. There was no discussion about participation rates, but assuming this is close to true that would indicate the vast majority of players aren't looking for a challenge at all, and that at this point XIV is pretty much a casual/social MMORPG. There is a small carve out for the people seeking more of a challenge, but it's very unlikely that those extra components ever establish a prominent role outside of savage/ultimate content. (dps checks, mit checks, etc).

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Tbf, it can also have a lot to do with the source or manner of that difficulty. I love challenge when it comes from tanking, coordination, twitchy adaptation, etc. I just don't care for script-memorization or DDR.

And so I'll use WoW for challenge and here for story, visuals, and maybe the occasional PuGed Savage or some Extremes. Because, with brief outliers like pre-nerf Pharos Sirius, certain Extremes, and healing the more eventful of past Alliance Raids on their launch days with weirdly few (thereby overgeared) raiders, the types of difficulty I enjoy just scarcely exist in this game.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Or how about ppl playing healer do a better job at healing so stuff like this doesn't happen lol

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This person is absolutely right. The reason tanks are as strong at mitigating now is because at the normal level, garbage healers have always been rampant. The power of tanks improves the power fantasy the tank role offers and reduces toxicity by preventing runs they go like my m3 normal last week where neither healer could top off my themselves or the party for heal checks. If tanks can't carry normal content the game would be objectively worse. And no i dont mean soloing bosses over 20% hp that's cringe and disrespectful if its like the final xpac boss. Tanks should be courteous and healers shouldn't destroy other roles to feel relevant. Healers have been the least fun role since Shadowbringers for me. The dps "rotations" make normal mode content incredibly dull and scholar is a husk of my once favorite healer. Try actually doing healerless runs of challenging content outside of an organized premade and tell me you don't wish you had a healer. Heck most people can't unsync old ex trials cleanly without one.

the problem is of tanks get that good how to you expect the trash healer to get better? like at that point it's a vicious circle that good healers pay the price for sadly and if they could rework sage a bit to be more DPS heal related the DPS main could LV it and main it to make it easier for themself

I honestly don't like the theme of warriors, insofar that while I enjoy the idea of a tank so angry they ignore that they ought to be dying right now, the current system does not truly implement that for me.

That being said, I would not even want to do some massive changes to every abiltiy to facilitate what I feel would be a better theme, but rather just one "big" change: Other than Equilibrium, everything now shields instead of healing. Stackable shields, too. So that, numerically, the EHP is ~same, but for feeling/style reasons, Warriors now ignore damage instead of taking it and then re-healing afterwards.

This might be a person thing, but this healing-from-dealing damage I associate with a drain tank, or maybe even a drain healer like the Blood Mage of Vanguard. And drain tanks always have a bit of a necro feel to me, I could see Dark Knight being that lore-wise, or I could see a Reaper have a lot of drain self-healing as a DPS, etc. But a Warrior, an unstoppable berserker, I would associate mentally with flat out shrugging the incoming damage off instead of healing themselves by draining HP. Dunno, just not a good lore-fit IMO, although I grant that since I intentionally would not want it to mess up the current balance much - that'd be a separate step then - it would not be a change in how the job plays, except for some ability timings (since you'd stack shields before the hit, Bloodwhetting for example might need to be inverted in some regards).

A more extreme variant of that would be:

* Damage of most abilities reduced.
* Healing or shielding added to ~all attacks.
* All defensive CDs changed to provide variable amounts of damage increases for either a certain time or a certain amount of attacks. Some of these also increase the % of damage that heals/shields.
* Net result: Comparable damage and survivability as now, but the latter is more spread out.
* Bloodwhetting would become a way to briefly "spike" the healing or shielding in anticipation of bursts. Holmgang as invuln remains of course. Thrill of Battle remains as another "true" defensive CD, plus it already increases healing taken so the numbers just need to be adjusted.

Like the shields-instead-of-healing, this would feel "more fitting" IMO, as it would even more so lean into the berserker-tank, not even having any real defensive CD, just going wild and smashing the enemy's face, and the harder they do, the more damage they can shrug off.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Other than Equilibrium, everything now shields instead of healing. Stackable shields, too. So that, numerically, the EHP is ~same, but for feeling/style reasons, Warriors now ignore damage instead of taking it and then re-healing afterwards.

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When considering whether Warrior ought to have healing or not, it's worth considering that HP is, at least as presented in-game, at least as correlative with Stamina/Vigor/Will as with become a blood splatter/corpse.

Players and party characters reaching 0 HP is more accurately a "knockout" than actual "death", hence the ability to Raise downed allies in-game yet not the actually resurrect those who have actually been truly killed.

Similarly, it makes more sense to be a sliver from being knocked unconscious and yet at full strength than to be a sliver from death.

What then gives Warriors the will to fight on? Slowing a one-sided attrition by ignoring any bits at a time of would-be loss to vitality/vigor/stamina/health, or counterattacks that let them fully feel the thrill of the fight?

One last note:
The main benefit of fully ignoring damage is that you can make debuffs conditional to having done so. But... ought Warrior be able to outright prevent the application of debuffs --as if a separate shield had fully countered the mechanic-- rather than being better at pressing through them?

i think holmgang is way more op

to me bloodwhetting is not op