Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

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Originally Posted by Squig

I keep seeing this “trinity game” thing getting tossed around as if the way this game works hasn’t always amounted to dealing damage alone. You can take sustain and mitigation options away as much as you want but high level optimization in this game will always revolve around killing bosses faster (i.e. doing more damage by spending less time healing). The answer to this whole healer dilemma has always been giving healers more engaging damage rotations (NOT the same as increasing their share of damage) because, as long as healers have the ability to deal damage at all, they’ll be trying to maximize the amount of time they can spend doing that instead of healing. I’m not sure when the Healer Strike crowd lost the plot on this.

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More engaging gameplay suggests more damage buttons, and I don't think healers want more buttons just to deal the exact same damage. Like if healers had 2-3 DoTs but the exact same potency, all it adds is a higher chance of messing up and dealing less damage without the reward, and then you have fewer GCDs to heal when you need to. There are also so many oGCD heals now that it shouldn't matter that much anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Fair conversation is to see what exactly the tank community could see as a compromise as to what needs to be adjusted on their part. For the health of the game overall tanks have to be brought in line overall.

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This was your mistake. No one will advocate for their own reduction in power.

The only sane way moving forward is heavily reducing tank sustain. You do this by either heavily reducing their healing (Because healing on tanks is magnified by their mitigation both passively and with cooldowns), or moving that to short duration shields. And frankly most tanks shouldn't be part of the discussion because the history of these forums shows a player cannot be trusted to put the game before their own interests.

To the initial question posed in the title, I don't think it would solve much. You would just have healers doing higher damage with a still unsatisfying lack of DPS options and tanks having less of an impact in the fight other than standing around. It also means that healers will need to prioritizing pressing their DPS during 2 min windows harder than presently which could make their DPS variable depending on fight flow. I don't really mind healers having their damage raised proportionately to tanks (in the same way DPS melees are balanced against ranged currently) and potentially stripping some of tanks raidwide mitigation to shift further onto healers. This would give them more responsibility over the lives of the party while allowing tanks to retain some autonomy over their own preservation still. Either option increases the healer workload in different directions. I feel like a step to making healers more interesting rather than just tuning numbers up would be giving them more interesting DPS buttons and increasing interactivity between their DPS and their healing output.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This was your mistake. No one will advocate for their own reduction in power.

The only sane way moving forward is heavily reducing tank sustain. You do this by either heavily reducing their healing (Because healing on tanks is magnified by their mitigation both passively and with cooldowns), or moving that to short duration shields. And frankly most tanks shouldn't be part of the discussion because the history of these forums shows a player cannot be trusted to put the game before their own interests.

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Tanks shouldn't be in a discussion that directly is addressing tanks? A group shouldn't be involved in conversations that concern themselves? That's a terrible mentality to have. You just create an echo chamber to suit yourself. The idea that I should just trust others to make observations and decisions for my role without getting to chime in is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Issue with giving them the same damage it will not solve the issue with them being replaced in content when possible. A healers job in FFXIV can be replaced but the nature of aggro in this game a Tank cannot be easily replaced.

The enjoyment factor is just one part of the equation.

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Im not really talking about that, healers need to be the best at healing and everyone else has to be awful at or unable to heal for them not to get replaced simply. I think Healer Damage increase is a QoL for the MSQ and solo content, doing the MSQ as a healer is painfully boring because theres tons of quests where you have to kill mobs and it takes way longer than Tanks or DPS. Sure you can say switch to DPS or Tank for this but a lot of players who do the MSQ stick with one job and especially their starting role throughout the entire MSQ so really Healers doing as much damage as Tanks would alleviate this annoying aspect of the game.

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Originally Posted by FunnyCero

Tanks shouldn't be in a discussion that directly is addressing tanks? A group shouldn't be involved in conversations that concern themselves? That's a terrible mentality to have. You just create an echo chamber to suit yourself. The idea that I should just trust others to make observations and decisions for my role without getting to chime in is ridiculous.

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I said most, because most of them have proven it over the years.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I said most, because most of them have proven it over the years.

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My point still stands? Most by your metric is different for others and people can see the game differently than you do. If you're going to make a post about tanks in the tank roles section, you are inviting yourself to be critiqued by all kinds of tank players (and others).

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Originally Posted by FunnyCero

My point still stands? Most by your metric is different for others and people can see the game differently than you do. If you're going to make a post about tanks in the tank roles section, you are inviting yourself to be critiqued by all kinds of tank players (and others).

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I am no stranger to this, so you can rest easy.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

More engaging gameplay suggests more damage buttons, and I don't think healers want more buttons just to deal the exact same damage. Like if healers had 2-3 DoTs but the exact same potency, all it adds is a higher chance of messing up and dealing less damage without the reward, and then you have fewer GCDs to heal when you need to. There are also so many oGCD heals now that it shouldn't matter that much anyway.

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This I find is the crux of my issue with the "more engaging gameplay" arguement - you summed it up beautifully; if Healers got more complex damage rotations they would then start asking for higher overall damage and then it just becomes a never ending arms race. I don't feel adding DPS is going to solve the problem; its going to result in healers probably healing less overall and groups demanding more damage output from healers which I don't think is a great way to go. Personally I'd like to see more support abilities added to healers - I would actually strip 2min raid-wide DPS buffs from DPS and give them to healers and roll Dancer and Bard into the Healer camp possibly.

(edit forgot this part)
Example of short duration buffs that a good healer might want to keep up and on the right targets...by no means the only ones.
For example - Give WHM a Life III (buff that raises you if you die)
Give Astrologican Haste (+Weapon/Cast speed)
Give Sage Temper (+Wpn Damage)

To be fair what I enjoyed about healing when I healed as Ast was the buff and utility aspect
My take to improve healers and also make sure they are always staple even in speed running.

First remove rez from other roles. Give healers a combat rez on a 10 min timer or once per combat use and give them one self rez. Give healers more group utility that needs to be manged and maintained not just cast and forgotten.

Reduce overall sustain across the board for no healers slightly nothing too crazy just a minor nerf.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

More engaging gameplay suggests more damage buttons, and I don't think healers want more buttons just to deal the exact same damage. Like if healers had 2-3 DoTs but the exact same potency, all it adds is a higher chance of messing up and dealing less damage without the reward, and then you have fewer GCDs to heal when you need to. There are also so many oGCD heals now that it shouldn't matter that much anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

This I find is the crux of my issue with the "more engaging gameplay" arguement - you summed it up beautifully; if Healers got more complex damage rotations they would then start asking for higher overall damage and then it just becomes a never ending arms race. I don't feel adding DPS is going to solve the problem; its going to result in healers probably healing less overall and groups demanding more damage output from healers which I don't think is a great way to go. Personally I'd like to see more support abilities added to healers - I would actually strip 2min raid-wide DPS buffs from DPS and give them to healers and roll Dancer and Bard into the Healer camp possibly.

(edit forgot this part)
Example of short duration buffs that a good healer might want to keep up and on the right targets...by no means the only ones.
For example - Give WHM a Life III (buff that raises you if you die)
Give Astrologican Haste (+Weapon/Cast speed)
Give Sage Temper (+Wpn Damage)

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If what you want is to spend all your focus pumping HPS for a party that needs it, you both picked the wrong game for it. I don't know a nice way to communicate that you're demanding a massive upheaval that will never, ever happen in the design of a game whose developers have done nothing to meaningfully shake things up in the past decade. Get real. Please keep your incessant whining about healers out of the tank forums.