Warrior Rework to Balance the job

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Originally Posted by Trianna

Sorry but dungeons aren't end game content, normal trials aren't end game content neither are normal raids. Endgame content is Savage, EX, Criterion and Ultimates and all game balancing is made taking those in consideration.

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Still nobody has told me why we can have end game OR normal content balanced but not both. Seems to me that's precisely why instances, ilvl and level syncs exist. There is nothing stopping the devs setting enemy counts and damage in normal content to be balanced and interesting while endgame content is equally balanced. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Trianna

For all the healers screaming "omg, I WISH I HAD SOMETHING TO HEAL" say that to all the tanks melting in P10S cuz healers were too busy glaring or DPSing to actually help with heals. ... And guess what, that's end game, warriors now have a better kit to help with that. We, the tanks, ASKED for it and SE listened and those who asked actually do content.

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I'm glad WAR has a good savage kit, seems to me though a common theme in savage and ultimate content is very low target counts and that were WAR abilities reduced to healing on 1 to 3 enemies instead of a 10 or more it would have zero effect on savage content while going miles toward balancing the job in the rest of the game. Not everyone who plays healer is of the savage or ultimate standards and just as you have no interest in normal content, some of us have no interest in playing savage so yes, I wish my job wasn't made obsolete in the content the apparent majority of players play.

I don't begrudge you your good savage balance, in fact I advocate for it, why should it come at the expense of the rest of the game?

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Originally Posted by Trianna

Healers are fine, they were fine before and they will keep being fine cuz you know what? The healing changes since ARR were made taking FEEDBACK in consideration. You guys asked for healer to be easier and less complex. Yoshi P made clear multiple times that all job changes comes from community requests and no change will ever please everyone

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I imagine a decent number of healers are happy with their kits and jobs for the most part - I don't see entire sections of the forum calling for cleric stance back for example - now we are asking to have tanks, healers and 70% of the game balanced in such a way that we actually get to use those kits instead of being a weaker DPS filling a mandatory slot in party make-ups. I guess the alternative is to ask for the removal of the healer requirement for duties, then nobody has to fill the role of "bad DPS job".

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Originally Posted by Trianna

Savage didn't even came out and you all crying for healing issues... Get your head out of your holes and play the game for once before talking.

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If only savage and up is "the game" then I may never "play the game", otherwise, I have three years of playing the game under my belt I think I've seen enough to comment.

i highly agree on alice in the regard that BOTH high end content AND regular content has to be ballanced. NOT everyone plays savages and ultimate. GOOD FOR YOU IF YOU DO. but most people don't and there is no reason why like 70% of the games playerbase shud get screwed over to appease the 30%.

your view on how warrior is "fine" is heavily flawed therefor. your view on warrior is "fine" may be true for extremes or above. but nothing else. (wich mind you is still the majority of the game where warrior is absolutely broken)

and i'll quote: "Get your head out of your holes and play the game for once before talking." as you appearently don't really play much of the majority of the existing content other then high end duties yet have a strong opinion on how a class you play (and most likely main) is fine as is while it is really not.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Still nobody has told me why we can have end game OR normal content balanced but not both. Seems to me that's precisely why instances, ilvl and level syncs exist. There is nothing stopping the devs setting enemy counts and damage in normal content to be balanced and interesting while endgame content is equally balanced. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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Dungeons and normal are the easy, story modes. They're designed to be steamrolled by anyone.
Asking to balance jobs for the easy mode is counter productive as you'll impact the job performance on all content.

Savage and ultimates are exactly the modes where balance matters the most. If you nerf Warrior because you find them too strong in the easy more, they'll be weaker because some people are complaining about dungeons.
Imagine if you nerf something because it's too strong in the tutorial, it doesn't makes sense, correct?

And let's be real, if Warrior had bloodwhetting removed, people would then move on to whine about other tools. Even if tank were nerfed, healers wouldn't make use of their full kit in dungeons.
Dungeons are the problem, they don't deal enough damage and all damages are mostly focused on the tank. Fix them and you'll see less complaints about WAR.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Dungeons and normal are the easy, story modes. They're designed to be steamrolled by anyone.
Asking to balance jobs for the easy mode is counter productive as you'll impact the job performance on all content.

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It's a reason, I suppose, I don't find it particularly persuasive. Designing content to be steamrolled is exactly what brought us to the point where we have a dozen or more threads above difficulty with dozens of people insulting eachother. It's also the reason why the divide between casual players and savage raiders is so significant with midcore unserved. It should be entirely possible to maintain a difficulty curve and the content be balanced.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Savage and ultimates are exactly the modes where balance matters the most. If you nerf Warrior because you find them too strong in the easy more, they'll be weaker because some people are complaining about dungeons.
Imagine if you nerf something because it's too strong in the tutorial, it doesn't makes sense, correct?

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Yes, actually, it makes perfect sense that you either adjust something because it's too strong in the tutorial or you adjust the tutorial because it's not teaching properly as a result of that thing being too powerful. Preferably you adjust both in smaller degrees to reach the same balance point which is what I want to see.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

And let's be real, if Warrior had bloodwhetting removed, people would then move on to whine about other tools. Even if tank were nerfed, healers wouldn't make use of their full kit in dungeons.
Dungeons are the problem, they don't deal enough damage and all damages are mostly focused on the tank. Fix them and you'll see less complaints about WAR.

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Which is why I'm not suggesting removing bloodwhetting or anything else from the WAR kit, simply adjusting it in a way that maintains it's savage/ultimate power without breaking the rest of the game for everyone who plays that. In a holy trinity setup that is actively enforced by the game's primary group finding apparatus (the Duty Finder) all three points of it should be properly enforced lest your "tutorial" is not doing it's job. Teaching healers to do dps at the expense of their intended primary role (a role demanded in savage/ultimate) by having WAR do their job for them is doing nobody any favours, healers, tanks and dps alike - especially in savage content where people then have to completely relearn their jobs.

Cknovel. Homie your 100% correct.

Story mode teaches behaviour you take into hard mode when you make the change. Warrior being an immortal god in story mode then transforming into someone who relies on healers in hard content is bad game design.
The trinity should be present in all stages of the game especially level fucking 90-100 this is hundreds of hours into the game, every job should be reliant on each others role by this point in the game.

I think you'd need to re-examine what it is the Warrior is supposed to represent in the Tank Role.

Right now it's the self-sustaining healer tank that does good damage, and if you think that doesn't fit then I would agree with you thus it should be reworked, not because the players are unhappy with it but it doesn't fit the design of what he job was supposed to be.

I would challenge the current Warrior should be a High Damage reduction tank.
That is to say, they don't tank damage as opposed to just healing through everything while dishing out damage.

How would I approach this?

Reworking all their job-specific damage mitigations to be damage reduction mitigations.

Then what would the gimmick be that sets them apart?

Each time a job-specific mitigation is used, it resets the duration of a pre-existing one, while stacking on top of the new one, this chain can continue to stack and reset until you eventually get all mitigations going, then it becomes a mini-game of checks and balances trying to manage them all, this would give the expert players the challenge and fast fingers challenge they seem to want, while allowing the casuals access to the job but still being able to use it in more leisurely content without feeling pressured to be as high level players would feel to hit everything and keep the aforementioned mini-game going.

What would be the rewards?
As I mentioned, imagine hitting "Thrill of Battle" and getting a 10% damage reduction, for 10 seconds, and on the 9th second you hit, "Vengence" and get an additional 10% damage reduction for 15 seconds and Thrill of Battle resets to its 10 second duration, this continues with every mitigation you have, you wait until its nearly out then hit the next in your respective chain and gain a stackable 10% damage mitigation and reset the duration of all pre-existing buffs lets say you timed it right so you activate all 7 or is It 8 mitigations that would be like a 70 to 80% damage reduction, but lets say you pop Rampart now it stacks up to 100%, you have the potential to have 100% damage immunity, so long as you play the mini game right, and while you are doing it the reset counter on all previous mitigations is slowly resetting.

This sounds like a much more interesting version of warrior than what we currently have, and allows for a certain type of player to achieve a higher level of skill vs reward style of game play.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

It's a reason, I suppose, I don't find it particularly persuasive. Designing content to be steamrolled is exactly what brought us to the point where we have a dozen or more threads above difficulty with dozens of people insulting eachother. It's also the reason why the divide between casual players and savage raiders is so significant with midcore unserved. It should be entirely possible to maintain a difficulty curve and the content be balanced.

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Removing bloodwhetting was an extreme example to show that it wouldn't fix the actual issue. The point is that even without Bloodwhetting, even if it never existed, people would complain.
If you nerf it, people will complain regardless, because the problem are exactly the dungeons very low damage.

I strongly believe it would be better to have dungeons doing more party wide damage so that both tank and healer can use and learn about their tools.
Even without Bloodwhetting, dungeons and normal mode do a terrible jobs at teaching the game. In fact, nothing teaches you about the game, your best bet are guides...

If you nerf Bloodwhetting, you still suffers the mentionned problems:
-Dungeon damages remains underbalanced and good tanks will still take minimal damage, people's complaints will move from Warrior to Paladin.
-Holy trinity responsibility will still be extremely low, healer won't make use of their full use of their healing kit and will DPS more than heal.
-Dungeons won't fill their role as "tutorial" and won't teach healers or tanks anything.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

If you nerf Bloodwhetting, you still suffers the mentionned problems:
-Dungeon damages remains underbalanced and good tanks will still take minimal damage, people's complaints will move from Warrior to Paladin.
-Holy trinity responsibility will still be extremely low, healer won't make use of their full use of their healing kit and will DPS more than heal.
-Dungeons won't fill their role as "tutorial" and won't teach healers or tanks anything.

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All of which brings me back to this:

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Yes, actually, it makes perfect sense that you either adjust something because it's too strong in the tutorial or you adjust the tutorial because it's not teaching properly as a result of that thing being too powerful. Preferably you adjust both in smaller degrees to reach the same balance point which is what I want to see.

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So far as I can tell, reducing the amount of targets WAR can heal off per attack goes a long way to balancing it in dungeons without changing high end balance in any meaningful way, then you increase sustained NPC damage in lower end content to be balanced with existing mits and healing, further, to maintain that balance, I would suggest reducing the ilvl range on duties to prevent excessive power from stats breaking that balance. If, after that, adjustments need to be made to PLD, to GNB, to DRK, so be it, there's nothing stopping them from re-tuning savage and ultimate for some potency adjustments that balance the foundational and intended educational experience to actually educate and build foundations.

Is it a pain point in the short term? Yes, it'll frustrate everyone, but in the long term it's far better for the health of the game and the continued retention of players. No MMO can live purely on player turnover.

that won't help, even on single target a war can get up to near full if they know what they are doing. the more targets just make it easier.
if War is going to be the self healing tank, then it's going to be like this no matter what.

but also ask why. Most healers I encounter can't handle drk in dungeons. i'm god awful as a healer and I can still comfortably heal a drk in a dungeon. so we just go war to get it over with. Also war provides newer and less skilled tanks a safer way to do dungeons.

People already have tank anxiety, changing the safe/easy tank will only add further stress to new tanks.

Personally, I only take drk or war into expertise depending on how I feel.
Good mood = drk
Bad mode and don't wanna have to deal the chance a healer can't keep up with a drk = war.

and finally changing a job to fit low-level content, to add challenge people who don't wanna do harder content, seems pointless, it's not like war is going to savage and slapping the boss around on the regular,

It seems like all this talk about healers leads to non tank players wanting to change tank. to suit them. instead of offering ideas on how EXACTLY to "fix" healers.
Why idk, I feel like a healer is fine but I don't play it too often so my thoughts on healer dont matter.

#TANKBROTHERHOOD4LIFE