Dawntrail Media Tour Wishlist Survey

I want Blue Mage to be a real job.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Oh, I'm aware of bard's issues, I've played it quite a lot in every expansion, I just found it interesting that bard is receiving such meh scores now. There's usually been hardcore defenders of every job, BRD still had some diehard fans back in ShB when it got gutted to make DNC more appealing, it's interesting that bard is now so widely disliked.

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I think the thing about Bard is that it’s design has become so twisted and patch-work-y that it’s put even the most staunch defenders off the job. Especially compared to other ranged options like Dancer and Summoner that have near-equal utility,
they still have party-damage buffs, and they’re significantly easier to output higher dps on. People who liked it for raids/gameplay have moved onto other jobs that do the same / more dps than Bard with half the effort, people who liked it for identity have moved onto other jobs because that identity is so flimsy and poorly-formed (even after 5 expansions to develop it lol).

It’s basically the same as healers currently where it appeals to literally nobody. People who liked old Bard gameplay aren’t satisfied, people preferred the aesthetic / identity aren’t satisfied, and newer players are naturally going to gravitate towards ‘easier’ / more ‘straightforward’ jobs like Summoner or Dancer

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Originally Posted by Connor

I think the thing about Bard is that it’s design has become so twisted and patch-work-y that it’s put even the most staunch defenders off the job. Especially compared to other ranged options like Dancer and Summoner that have near-equal utility,
they still have party-damage buffs, and they’re significantly easier to output higher dps on. People who liked it for raids/gameplay have moved onto other jobs that do the same / more dps than Bard with half the effort, people who liked it for identity have moved onto other jobs because that identity is so flimsy and poorly-formed (even after 5 expansions to develop it lol).

It’s basically the same as healers currently where it appeals to literally nobody. People who liked old Bard gameplay aren’t satisfied, people preferred the aesthetic / identity aren’t satisfied, and newer players are naturally going to gravitate towards ‘easier’ / more ‘straightforward’ jobs like Summoner or Dancer

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I can agree with the fact that bard has lost its identity. SB bard was great, then ShB gutted bard's support tool so DNC can have the limelight, then EW came along and there was an attempt to patch bard together again, but it's become a monster now.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I can agree with the fact that bard has lost its identity. SB bard was great, then ShB gutted bard's support tool so DNC can have the limelight, then EW came along and there was an attempt to patch bard together again, but it's become a monster now.

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The thing is, before EW I feel like people endured how undercooked the identity of the job was because of how much they liked the gameplay. Especially in Stormblood - I still remember crying all the time in threads about how Bard’s identity was being dismantled and they were changing us into something different completely, but most replies were ‘but it’s fun gameplay’ ‘who cares when the dps is so high’ ‘why do you want bard to be OP again’, ‘what difference does it make how we support the party’, etc. I was the Renathras of Bards and I wore my crown with pride .

After Stormblood though my uncannily accurate predictions (that literally anyone could see lol) started becoming true. Shadowbringers saw the support kit gutted and given to Dancer, but again, it done good dps and people still thought it was fun because the arrow stuff hadn’t changed outside of Sidewinder becoming fixed potency and not DoT-dependant. So people gave it a pass.

Come Endwalker though the gameplay deterioration has started to hit Bard harder. DoTs becoming ancillary to gameplay (they’re just there now), Sidewinder still no longer interacts with them, Bloodletter reset time caused Mage’s Ballad to become less valuable and turn into the ‘cut-off’ song over Paeon. Song Gauge is literally just ‘Apex Combo Gauge’. Paeon still doesn’t actually do much of anything, because why does Bard need Greased Lightning / Huton lol. Minne and Paean are functionally redundant at best (nobody needs extra healing and Esunas are too infrequently needed), Troubadour is a role skill disguised as a real one, Radiant Finale looks cool and very thematic but it’s ‘meh’ to use because it may as well be auto-activated every 120s.

Basically, we’ve finally reached a point where even the ‘but the gameplay/dps is good so who cares about identity’ players can’t enjoy the job anymore, because even that isn’t good anymore lol. Ultimately resulting in Bard being very close to the least popular job in the entire game, beaten only by Monk (I believe, not that I know anything about Monk lol)

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Originally Posted by Connor

The thing is, before EW I feel like people endured how undercooked the identity of the job was because of how much they liked the gameplay. Especially in Stormblood - I still remember crying all the time in threads about how Bard’s identity was being dismantled and they were changing us into something different completely, but most replies were ‘but it’s fun gameplay’ ‘who cares when the dps is so high’ ‘why do you want bard to be OP again’, ‘what difference does it make how we support the party’, etc. I was the Renathras of Bards and I wore my crown with pride .

After Stormblood though my uncannily accurate predictions (that literally anyone could see lol) started becoming true. Shadowbringers saw the support kit gutted and given to Dancer, but again, it done good dps and people still thought it was fun because the arrow stuff hadn’t changed outside of Sidewinder becoming fixed potency and not DoT-dependant. So people gave it a pass.

Come Endwalker though the gameplay deterioration has started to hit Bard harder. DoTs becoming ancillary to gameplay (they’re just there now), Sidewinder still no longer interacts with them, Bloodletter reset time caused Mage’s Ballad to become less valuable and turn into the ‘cut-off’ song over Paeon. Song Gauge is literally just ‘Apex Combo Gauge’. Paeon still doesn’t actually do much of anything, because why does Bard need Greased Lightning / Huton lol. Minne and Paean are functionally redundant at best (nobody needs extra healing and Esunas are too infrequently needed), Troubadour is a role skill disguised as a real one, Radiant Finale looks cool and very thematic but it’s ‘meh’ to use because it may as well be auto-activated every 120s.

Basically, we’ve finally reached a point where even the ‘but the gameplay/dps is good so who cares about identity’ players can’t enjoy the job anymore, because even that isn’t good anymore lol. Ultimately resulting in Bard being very close to the least popular job in the entire game, beaten only by Monk (I believe, not that I know anything about Monk lol)

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I see what you mean, although I think SB bard was still reasonably supportive and hadn't gotten their identity entirely ripped to shreds yet. My absolute favourite iteration of bard is the least popular one by far though, HW bowmage. I tolerated SB bard because it was still ok and it was reasonably fun, but it did lose some of its spark, which saddens me. I think trying to balance it against MCH was their fatal mistake, should've just let them both become their own thing.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I see what you mean, although I think SB bard was still reasonably supportive and hadn't gotten their identity entirely ripped to shreds yet. My absolute favourite iteration of bard is the least popular one by far though, HW bowmage. I tolerated SB bard because it was still ok and it was reasonably fun, but it did lose some of its spark, which saddens me. I think trying to balance it against MCH was their fatal mistake, should've just let them both become their own thing.

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I do agree that Stormblood Bard wasn’t bad to play. The issue I had was that it was the beginning of Bard’s support moving from being an active decision on behalf of the player to being a passive byproduct of the dps rotation. Ballad, Paeon and Minuet turned into damage buttons whose support effects were ancillary - you pressed the buttons because they were your dps rotation, not because you wanted to support the party. I believe they also changed to an oGCD in Stormblood too; it was originally a Spell like an actual Esuna should be lol (cast time, no cool-down), but that may have been during Heavensward. Requiem still existed but was often just complained about, ‘why do I have to cast how dare you SE’ (it was only 1.5s by Stormblood I think), ‘why does bard need to use Mp’ ‘make it an ogcd with long cool-down’. That, coupled with Dancer coming in and stealing the stage (lol), and the whole ‘party synergy’ fiasco, made SE go with ‘well Bard barely has any support left, but no more cast times! and you don’t need a DRG!’, whilst removing the last piece of active support Bard had.

Fast forward to Endwalker, and we more clearly see how the gameplay for Bard has been deteriorating over time. Stormblood was when the cracks in the wall started to appear, so to speak, but they weren’t immediately noticeable. I was mostly complaining because I had my own overly passionate ideas of what Bard should be based on 2.0/3.0…back then, I couldn’t have imagined it would turn into this lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

I do agree that Stormblood Bard wasn’t bad to play. The issue I had was that it was the beginning of Bard’s support moving from being an active decision on behalf of the player to being a passive byproduct of the dps rotation. Ballad, Paeon and Minuet turned into damage buttons whose support effects were ancillary - you pressed the buttons because they were your dps rotation, not because you wanted to support the party. I believe they also changed to an oGCD in Stormblood too; it was originally a Spell like an actual Esuna should be lol (cast time, no cool-down), but that may have been during Heavensward. Requiem still existed but was often just complained about, ‘why do I have to cast how dare you SE’ (it was only 1.5s by Stormblood I think), ‘why does bard need to use Mp’ ‘make it an ogcd with long cool-down’. That, coupled with Dancer coming in and stealing the stage (lol), and the whole ‘party synergy’ fiasco, made SE go with ‘well Bard barely has any support left, but no more cast times! and you don’t need a DRG!’, whilst removing the last piece of active support Bard had.

Fast forward to Endwalker, and we more clearly see how the gameplay for Bard has been deteriorating over time. Stormblood was when the cracks in the wall started to appear, so to speak, but they weren’t immediately noticeable. I was mostly complaining because I had my own overly passionate ideas of what Bard should be based on 2.0/3.0…back then, I couldn’t have imagined it would turn into this lol

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The 3 song rotation loop was started in SB, it was HW when we had Mage's Ballad for MP restoration and Army's Paeon for TP restoration, SB gave us Tactician for TP and Refresh for MP at no cost to our damage. I honestly enjoyed HW bard, it felt good to support the team and Requiem optimisation was my favourite part of the job. Unfortunately, people spent the entirety of HW complaining about bard losing damage to support the team and also the cast time (why did they have to make bard 1:1 with MCH?), so they inevitably just removed all the cast times and the damage reduction because people were crying about it.

SB may have been when the cracks started slowly appearing, but I'd say that it's still a decent middle ground for people who want support and people who want damage. Although as I said, they should've let both physical ranged jobs develop their own separate ways back then instead of trying to mash them into the same uses, maybe then players who enjoy support would enjoy bard and players who want to do damage would enjoy MCH.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The 3 song rotation loop was started in SB, it was HW when we had Mage's Ballad for MP restoration and Army's Paeon for TP restoration, SB gave us Tactician for TP and Refresh for MP at no cost to our damage. I honestly enjoyed HW bard, it felt good to support the team and Requiem optimisation was my favourite part of the job. Unfortunately, people spent the entirety of HW complaining about bard losing damage to support the team and also the cast time (why did they have to make bard 1:1 with MCH?), so they inevitably just removed all the cast times and the damage reduction because people were crying about it.

SB may have been when the cracks started slowly appearing, but I'd say that it's still a decent middle ground for people who want support and people who want damage. Although as I said, they should've let both physical ranged jobs develop their own separate ways back then instead of trying to mash them into the same uses, maybe then players who enjoy support would enjoy bard and players who want to do damage would enjoy MCH.

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I forgot to add in the part in edit lol, the ‘spell turned oGCD’ I was referring was the Warden’s Paean, not the main 3 themselves which as you say we’re still in their original (and my personal favourite) forms in Heavensward

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I see what you mean, although I think SB bard was still reasonably supportive and hadn't gotten their identity entirely ripped to shreds yet. My absolute favourite iteration of bard is the least popular one by far though, HW bowmage. I tolerated SB bard because it was still ok and it was reasonably fun, but it did lose some of its spark, which saddens me. I think trying to balance it against MCH was their fatal mistake, should've just let them both become their own thing.

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When heavansward first came out i didn't like bowmage but once I got use to it I didn't mind it and thought it was fun. I thought stormblood bard wasn't too bad either but don't really like how it plays now.

I like the concept of the songs, but I agree with what some of the comments said about how much it also restricts the job because it makes it very annoying to deal with content that doesn't strictly adhere to a boss-type combat structure, like Deep Dungeons