Duty Support has now killed every required ARR to SB dungeon

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That's a flawed argument.

Because a dungeon will be boring and people will skip parts doesn't mean you should make them boring from the get-go.

You are assuming everyone shares this hive mentality. There are also people out there who will not touch stuff if it's boring or only run content with friends where what you are saying is not an issue. It's like saying why make a video game if people will quit it once they are done.

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Just leveling exp won't be enough. It has to be something worth of value for everyone who maxed out their characters - something like high amounts of gil / tomes / popular renewable currency that can be used anywhere no matter ilvl difficulty.

A fully maxed out player might be doing their roulettes for tomes (and that's the only thing that matters now if you want to farm tomes for relic weapon...) and the side boss gives nothing of value except time wasted for that goal because it becomes "optional".

Now that I think of it, why not bring back HM dungeons? Heck could prolly save some time/development and just do away with the criterion junk, instead have a like variant of an existing dungeon, one thats around EX difficulty and doesnt involve trusts. Id love some difficult dungeons that dont follow that trash, boss, trash, boss, trash, boss, routine as well...

Back when I was a sprout, we had to grind dungeons uphill, both ways, in the snow!

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Now that I think of it, why not bring back HM dungeons? Heck could prolly save some time/development and just do away with the criterion junk, instead have a like variant of an existing dungeon, one thats around EX difficulty and doesnt involve trusts. Id love some difficult dungeons that dont follow that trash, boss, trash, boss, trash, boss, routine as well...

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Other than being more dungeons for players to do, the Hard dungeons didn't really bring a new form of content to the game. "Hard" was just a way saying "this is intended for level cap players".

I'm also curious about what you have in mind when you say a dungeon shouldn't just be "trash, boss, trash, boss". That's pretty much been the dungeon standard in every MMORPG I've played. Sometimes there were different routes to take but in the end they were still just "trash, boss, trash, boss".

Imagine deciding all your level design should be made for your crappy bots instead of players...

Copperbell is a lot better now though.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Other than being more dungeons for players to do, the Hard dungeons didn't really bring a new form of content to the game. "Hard" was just a way saying "this is intended for level cap players".

I'm also curious about what you have in mind when you say a dungeon shouldn't just be "trash, boss, trash, boss". That's pretty much been the dungeon standard in every MMORPG I've played. Sometimes there were different routes to take but in the end they were still just "trash, boss, trash, boss".

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Hard mode dungeons had different gimmicks compared to the originals. Tam-Tara hard has a very different direction compared to normal, Wanderer's Palace Hard doesn't feature stealth and has a different main mechanic etc...
And narratively they were interesting because it made dungeons feel less like they were frozen in time. It was cool seeing what became of them since your last time.

All that stuff is old. The game is too long to have to learn the mechanics of every dungeon on the way through. Over time, stuffs gotta go.

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Originally Posted by Korbei

All that stuff is old. The game is too long to have to learn the mechanics of every dungeon on the way through. Over time, stuffs gotta go.

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Yeah bro I love it when the few combat interludes that break up the hours and hours of walking and talking are extremely repetitive and boring with the same mechanics over and over. And I love grinding dungeons that were already boring the first time for tomestones.

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Originally Posted by Korbei

All that stuff is old. The game is too long to have to learn the mechanics of every dungeon on the way through. Over time, stuffs gotta go.

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You don't need to, the vast majority of mechanics can be reacted to in real time, you just need to know your mechanic markers, which are virtually universal at this point.

"Hard" dungeons were ways to reuse old assets so that they could maintain a higher content output, which, given that they were usually just as fun as originals, seems just fine to me. The label "Return to X" or "X (Reprise)" or "X (Another)" --nearer to the originally proposed JPN term, iirc-- would probably have been more intuitive but doesn't slip off the tongue as easily, to say the least.

Yeah... dont mean bring back HM dungeons exactly as they were before, I ment tougher dungeon, that doesnt follow the usual dungeon layout, with mechanics/puzzles that arent boggled down by Trusts and reuse previous dungeon stages/assets to save on time/development rather something like variant/criterion.