Please finally fix Tank, DPS and Healer roles SE

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Originally Posted by Gemina

DPS responsibility is pretty static in all content regardless of difficulty: Kill the enemy. They are by far and at large the most efficient at this so they carry the responsibility of optimizing their skillset for the situation they are in. Healers OTOH have a large portion of skills that go unused, particularly in NM 8-man content. On top of this, they have fewer offensive skills than both DPS and tanks, and 90% of those are situational, have long CDs, or are a resource spender.

Another way to look at this is healers have the fewest amount of skills that are exclusive to them: SMN and RDM can raise players. Many DPS jobs are capable of providing raid mitigation and offensive boosts. Tanks can heal themselves and group members, especially WAR. Jobs in both Tank and DPS roles can also provide HoTs. When you think about it all healers have that are exclusive is on demand cleanses and Rescue. Both of which tend to rely on player incompetence or unawareness to be useful.

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I'm not sure what that has to do with healers being less important than dps. Healers could have a single spell and they'd still be more important than dps.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

While I understand that the self-sustainability is most likely for either solo instances, or to carry the dead weight of a garbage healer, or both, I do feel like it's pretty unbalanced in group content.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's nice when I have an 8-man group where 3 people are just so determined to eat the floor and my co-healer is a medica 2 mage, but I can see how it's annoying for more skilled groups.

Idk. I just seem to always get the bottom of the barrel players that can't tell their head from their butt. So when I do get players who are able to use their kit effectively, it's a nice breath of fresh air.

I do wish, though, that in general, people would only use their self-sustain as a back up. I get you want to use your full kit, but if your healer(s) is competent, then let them do their job. Let them worry about healing, you focus on tanking/dpsing. If the party is struggling and constantly dying and the healer is spending their whole time hardcasting rezzes (been there), then please use it.

It should be a back-up, not a go-to.

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It's the goto because they are like 25 second cooldowns and have both mit and healing (in the case of bloodwhetting/corundum at least). People do give paladins shit for using clemency when the healer is alive though.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

I do wish, though, that in general, people would only use their self-sustain as a back up. I get you want to use your full kit, but if your healer(s) is competent, then let them do their job. Let them worry about healing, you focus on tanking/dpsing.

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But that's the thing: All that self-sustain doesn't get in the way of tanking or DPSing. It's either baked into rotations or available as oGCDs. There's no reason not to hit those buttons.

PLD Clemency and RDM Vercure are the only exceptions, if memory serves.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

While I understand that the self-sustainability is most likely for either solo instances, or to carry the dead weight of a garbage healer, or both, I do feel like it's pretty unbalanced in group content.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's nice when I have an 8-man group where 3 people are just so determined to eat the floor and my co-healer is a medica 2 mage, but I can see how it's annoying for more skilled groups.

Idk. I just seem to always get the bottom of the barrel players that can't tell their head from their butt. So when I do get players who are able to use their kit effectively, it's a nice breath of fresh air.

I do wish, though, that in general, people would only use their self-sustain as a back up. I get you want to use your full kit, but if your healer(s) is competent, then let them do their job. Let them worry about healing, you focus on tanking/dpsing. If the party is struggling and constantly dying and the healer is spending their whole time hardcasting rezzes (been there), then please use it.

It should be a back-up, not a go-to.

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In argument with the self-sufficient in solo instanced content. A lot of the time the game adds in context based buffs to regen and damage to make up for the lack of other roles. So I dont think the focus is on that.

It feels more like this is intentional as time goes by, and thats sad, because in their effort to make an already easy game easier to pick up and play, theyre ignoring the fun factor out of meaningful team-based combat.

This also goes with a criticism I have for this game in which the combat is just not fun and their imbalance plays a huge factor into it imo.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I'm not sure what that has to do with healers being less important than dps. Healers could have a single spell and they'd still be more important than dps.

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Because the way the game is predominantly optimized by players is to maximize DPS as much as humanly possible while still being able to clear. If you can do it without a healer, you can get more damage, get faster clears, its more "optimal". Tanks hold enmity and are the only ones who can take TBs and the autos from the bosses, DPS do the most damage, healers in theory should be the ones keeping people alive.... but if you don't actually need them to do that its better to get rid of them in an "optimized" composition to increase damage output.

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Originally Posted by klutzz

Because the way the game is predominantly optimized by players is to maximize DPS as much as humanly possible while still being able to clear. If you can do it without a healer, you can get more damage, get faster clears, its more "optimal". Tanks hold enmity and are the only ones who can take TBs and the autos from the bosses, DPS do the most damage, healers in theory should be the ones keeping people alive.... but if you don't actually need them to do that its better to get rid of them in an "optimized" composition to increase damage output.

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And this is my main problem. Healers are useless in this game's meta, which its weird for a game that uses the role trinity.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

And this is my main problem. Healers are useless in this game's meta, which its weird for a game that uses the role trinity.

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I wouldn't call them useless. As I said in the thread about the Ultimate clear, they are still a safety net, and most groups still need them to fix mistakes. Their LB3 is also used to cheese mechanics like Immolation in Mt. Ordeals EX. Tanks and DPS still cannot replenish health with the same efficiency that healers do, but this is not needed for a group composed of highly skilled players.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I wouldn't call them useless. As I said in the thread about the Ultimate clear, they are still a safety net, and most groups still need them to fix mistakes. Their LB3 is also used to cheese mechanics like Immolation in Mt. Ordeals EX. Tanks and DPS still cannot replenish health with the same efficiency that healers do, but this is not needed for a group composed of highly skilled players.

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But this is also prevalent in normal casual group content though. It already has been proven multiple times how lack of healers is more efficient to complete content due to the imbalance. I understand that obviously not everyone is a pro gamer, but the whole point of having balance patches is to keep each role and job fair for every comp without compromising the other. Skilled players shouldnt compromise other skilled players.

Just imagine how healers feel, knowing that your job is actually this gimped that efficient runs of current hard content doesnt require you at all? I mean you just admitted yourself that highly skilled players dont need healers in your last sentence. You dont find that odd? You dont find that be a serious problem with the balancing of this game?

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

But that's the thing: All that self-sustain doesn't get in the way of tanking or DPSing. It's either baked into rotations or available as oGCDs. There's no reason not to hit those buttons.

PLD Clemency and RDM Vercure are the only exceptions, if memory serves.

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And SMN Physik, which I have used once before to survive with 8 HP left after Physiking myself. LOL

Instead of nerfing tanks, they could always make it so damage is more frequent to the point where spamming damage always isn't the meta for healers anymore, i think healers would be alot more fun if they were about managing mana and keeping the party alive through more constant damage and squeezing in damage when they can rather than squeezing out as few heals as possible