IMO; Button bloat for all jobs could be cleaned up by:
1. Creating AoE versions of all Single Target abilities
2. Create Single Target versions of all AoE abilities
3. Add an "AoE stance"; Having it on means that you are using the AoE version of the abilities, having it off means that you're using the single target version. (or, just have everything cleave and make it even simpler)
With a couple of caveats:
1. Healers would continue to have their current DPS kit given how small it is, their stance would only affect heals
2. Most buffs would continue being party-wide regardless of stance
3. Numbers would be obviously be tweaked (lowered) for the AoE version to maintain balance
AoE fights are already boring due to the stripped down AoE rotation on most jobs and some jobs have significantly better AoE kits than others. For bard especially, this would mean Wanderer's Minuet wouldn't be bad for AoE (Pitch Perfect would be an AoE ability when you have AoE Stance on) and Mage's Ballad would be just as useful in single target as it would be in multitarget. It means that they don't need to mess too much with AoE balance since it should just match ST balance.
Making the AoE abilities a "XXX potency then XX% less for additional targets" will also make targeting at least somewhat important during those pulls.
It also allows for room to add complexity for both single target and AoE instead of being limited by each other in addition to teaching people their rotation better since they don't need to learn a ST AND an AoE rotation.
Condensing Bard with Morphing Buttons
Printable View
-
03-24-2022, 10:27 PMLeonKeyh
-
03-24-2022, 10:50 PMHyoMinParkI have to disagree—with all of this, but especially with point 1 and 2. I don’t believe either would clean up any button bloat, but rather add to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonKeyh
It would be far simpler to just make potent abilities that are usable in both AOE and single-target scenarios. Like DNC’s Saber Dance and their Finishes; or, in BRD’s case, Apex Arrow and Blast Arrow. There really isn’t a need to clone a skill and make one AOE and one single-target. AOE has so few uses outside of dungeons, so combat focus tends to be more against a single target.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with jobs having one or two standard AOEs—like BRD’s Quick Nock/Ladonbite or DNC’s AOE combo. But I don’t see the need to create skills like SAM’s Guren and Senei or Shoha and Shoha II (I guess the BRD equivalent in this system would be “Apex Arrow II” and “Blast Arrow II”). Because combat tends to be against one target (outside of dungeon trash pulls, or the rare opportunity in a trial or raid where you might be able to cleave multiple targets), adding single-target exclusive clones of existing abilities that could already be used in either single-target or AOE just adds to the bloat. And it makes the AOE one irrelevant in a lot of different content that it would have otherwise been useable in. SAM is one of the jobs right now that has a lot of buttons that could be reasonably trimmed down; and in SB, Guren was used in both AOE and single-target situations. Now? You use Senei over it when you’re in a trial or raid. Guren is forgotten unless it happens to line up with an add phase, and you can safely blow it on a cleave without losing a use of Senei when the boss returns (since the two share a cooldown).
Adding in an “Apex Arrow II” and a “Blast Arrow II” adds two unnecessary buttons. And even if you try to cut down on the bloat with adding in a stance toggle, I don’t think adding in stance dancing will really add much to gameplay—especially at a high-end level where you are almost always using single-target rotations over AOE ones. I don’t think add phases really add much reason to include this system: they’re far too short to really make it meaningful, in my opinion. So you dip into “AOE stance” for 30 seconds? Well, you’re still spending 6~9 minutes in “single-target stance”, so what did this really add to gameplay? -
03-25-2022, 09:47 PMLeonKeyhI'm unsure how replacing all of your AoE attacks with 1 button which toggles all of your single target attacks into AoE attacks "add to button bloat"? The AoE and single target version would be the same button, they would "add" Apex Arrow II and Blast Arrow II just to replace Apex Arrow and Blast Arrow if you had the stance onQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Stance dancing isn't the point of adding to gameplay, the point is to normalize single target gameplay and AoE gameplay, clean up the AoE abilities that you don't even use in high-level gameplay, and allow room on hotbars to make more meaningful abilities for both single target and AoE.
I agree with making potent abiltiies both AoE and single target that's the "or just have everything cleave", and BRD is one of the lesser "bloated" jobs when it comes to AoE and one of the jobs with the least amount of difference between AoE game play and ST game play, but there are some that are bad, some jobs you have 6-7 AoE abilities that are just multitarget versions of single target abilities that you have that would easily benefit for something like this.
For DRG, you have a 3 ability combo instead of a 10 ability combo which makes a big difference between what you're doing dungeons versus bosses, that's where I'm mainly coming from. As you mentioned, SAM has several abilities that are an AoE version of ST abilities that could easily be condensed (and I'm fine with them being condensed into big hit on primary target + cleave). Healers basically have single target and AoE versions of the same abilities; Same with DRK, WAR, and PLD. All of those could just be condensed. -
03-25-2022, 10:18 PMRansu
Basically you want to make the combat boring. I don't understand why people want everything to be crunched into a single button.
This game doesn't have an ability bloat problem. -
03-25-2022, 11:09 PMHyoMinParkOkay—except Apex Arrow and Blast Arrow already provide both single-target and AOE gameplay. So now, adding in a single-target iteration (“Apex Arrow II” and “Blast Arrow II”) and tossing in your stance dance mechanic is redundant and pointless. Abilities already exist that are flexible and can be used in both scenarios. There is no reason to add in a second, more limited version. And without adding in this second rendition, there is no reason for an “AOE stance” mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonKeyh
Then perhaps the suggestion should be to reconsider the additions of skills like Hissatsu: Senei and Shoha II (to provide two examples) versus creating a stance-dancing mechanic for streamlining. Senei and Shoha II don’t really need to exist when Guren was already a flexible skill, and Shoha could have just been made into the same via a trait upgrade if the developers wanted something to be obtained at level 82. The same could be said for Kyuten and Shinten. Make Shinten a potent Kenki dump that can also cleave in AOE situations, and remove Kyuten. Now there is no need for a stance-dance mechanic.Quote:
I agree with making potent abiltiies both AoE and single target that's the "or just have everything cleave", and BRD is one of the lesser "bloated" jobs when it comes to AoE and one of the jobs with the least amount of difference between AoE game play and ST game play, but there are some that are bad, some jobs you have 6-7 AoE abilities that are just multitarget versions of single target abilities that you have that would easily benefit for something like this.
There are simpler solutions to the issue of bloat on the jobs that have it outside of adding in a stance-dance mechanic that will be used almost exclusively in dungeons. Having a handful of standard AOEs is fine. But your AOE renditions of single-target abilities would be ignored in a lot of content, and your stance dancing irrelevant. I don’t see the need to add in a gameplay mechanic that isn’t actively used a lot.
Except a lot of these jobs don’t really need condensing. Especially healers. We’re already barebones in terms of damage abilities, there’s nothing to condense for us anymore. Outside of straight removal. If your argument comes from a button bloat concern, the only healer that has button bloat would be AST; and it could be easily rectified by condensing some of the card-based abilities, not in reducing their AOE “rotation”. Adding in this single-target/AOE stance toggle wouldn’t remove any buttons from the healers. You’d be removing our one AOE and replacing it with a stance, so what did you really save healers in terms of hotbar space? Nothing.Quote:
For DRG, you have a 3 ability combo instead of a 10 ability combo which makes a big difference between what you're doing dungeons versus bosses, that's where I'm mainly coming from. As you mentioned, SAM has several abilities that are an AoE version of ST abilities that could easily be condensed (and I'm fine with them being condensed into big hit on primary target + cleave). Healers basically have single target and AoE versions of the same abilities; Same with DRK, WAR, and PLD. All of those could just be condensed.
As for DRG, I don’t see the need for condensing them either as hotbar space is not an issue on that job. I also just don’t think that the condensing and stance-dancing toggle would guarantee that the developers would add in “more meaningful abilities” to replace the ones removed/condensed. “Meaningful abilities” can also be achieved without needless condensing on jobs that don’t need it via ability upgrades in the form of traits, or ability procs that chain off of a previous one—like the Blast Arrow proc that replaces Apex Arrow if it’s used at 80+ gauge.
The amount of jobs that have actual bloat isn’t significant enough to provide an adequate defense for overhauling all of them with a stance dance mechanic.