On Venat's Role in the Story

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Originally Posted by Rieze_Xeero

About Metaphor - Tell that to all the comments in a YouTube video about Venat. They all say the whole thing is a metaphor which does not make sense. :\

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It's not just YouTube, that's the consensus on Reddit too, or a montage. I would say there's no way to take that scene literally since it goes against everything we learned in ShB, but this is just one of many times that happened in EW so I've given up on there being any cohesive story transition from the previous expansion to this one.

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4) Azem - Still unclear what happened to original Azem, He just somehow banished and gets sundered. How wasted potential for a part of the convocation.

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I find it suspicious that Azem during the Final Days was a completely dropped plot point in EW. They didn't leave the Convocation until after Zodiark had been summoned, which would make sense because Hythlodaeus believed in it enough to sacrifice himself and Emet would've been tempered. Azem being the Convocation member abroad, it's likely they were not present for it. However, for whatever reason, they were seemingly not even interested in entertaining Venat or anyone else associated with her.

I'm not convinced the people working with Venat knew the extent of her plans either. One asks why she must be the heart because they need her as their leader and will miss her, which doesn't make sense in the context of the sundering. I expect if this ever is addressed it will be rewritten in some fashion too.

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Originally Posted by Rieze_Xeero

About Metaphor - Tell that to all the comments in a YouTube video about Venat. They all say the whole thing is a metaphor which does not make sense. :\
1 & 2) This one its clear how it has happened, what is not clear is the summoning. If we are to take what the game showed us, Venat became the heart of Hydealyn and with her sacrifice so pure and so heavy that her strong will manifest itself and became Hydealyn... To make it short "MCGUFFIN".
3) This one I agree, the metaphor is when she is walking down through void and time and getting the black impurities and getting weaker and weaker. But tell that to the YouTube comment as mentioned earlier haha.

4) Azem - Still unclear what happened to original Azem, He just somehow banished and gets sundered. How wasted potential for a part of the convocation. And Azem's soul crystal, became too much of a "MCGUFFIN"

I love the game's lore and the writers are amazing but they dropped the ball on some stuff in Endwalker. Wasted potential!

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I'd prefer not to argue with Youtube comments, actually, that sounds like an exercise in futility!

But the actual nature of Hydaelyn's symmoning we know to not be a spur of the moment thing because of Pureness of Heart; this isn't Kingdom Hearts, their address is just down the street. Hydaelyn's summoning was just as premeditated and organized as Zodiark's, just different in scale. Venat became the heart of Hydaelyn because that was the plan; it was not a solo act as depicted in that cutscene (which leads me to thinking that maybe wasn't the summoning), it was with that group of loyalists. She was the heart because she was evidently the only one who could stand up to Zodiark. We can reasonably assume that isn't too far from the truth, given it was said among the loyalists, but we don't know exactly why. It's certainly more of a tactical reason than just 'she's pure and special', though (because she's definitely not pure).

As for 'what happened to Azem'; they left the Convocation before the Final Days, and then went dark. We know they didn't die to the End of Days, because their soul still persists, but they were sundered. We may at some point learn what they were up to, but I'm not sure if we will or where we'd learn, since it seems like Pandaemonium might be taking place in Elpis' time.


As an aside, none of those are really 'MacGuffins', which is more supposed to be a definition for 'a thing of story-motivating importance that does little to nothing by itself', as coined by Alfred Hitchcock. It's not because they're people rather than things, though; R2D2 is a classic example. Venat is a fully-fledged character, with motivations and actions of her own that greatly influence the plot, so she's definitely not one. Azem actually doesn't motivate much of anything, they're just a background curiosity. Azem's soul crystal is closer, but is not actually a central motivator. If you're looking for a MacGuffin in Endwalker (across all of FFXIV, in fact), it's actually Zodiark; a central thing that the entire story revolves around, that actually does basically nothing in the events of the story itself beyond what the characters do with/about it. Very much like Indiana Jones' Ark of the Covenant.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

It's not just YouTube, that's the consensus on Reddit too, or a montage. I would say there's no way to take that scene literally since it goes against everything we learned in ShB, but this is just one of many times that happened in EW so I've given up on there being any cohesive story transition from the previous expansion to this one.

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Hahaha, Why I went to the lore forums because this is whats been lurking around by the "majority" of players and it irritates me.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I find it suspicious that Azem during the Final Days was a completely dropped plot point in EW. They didn't leave the Convocation until after Zodiark had been summoned, which would make sense because Hythlodaeus believed in it enough to sacrifice himself and Emet would've been tempered. Azem being the Convocation member abroad, it's likely they were not present for it. However, for whatever reason, they were seemingly not even interested in entertaining Venat or anyone else associated with her.

I'm not convinced the people working with Venat knew the extent of her plans either. One asks why she must be the heart because they need her as their leader and will miss her, which doesn't make sense in the context of the sundering. I expect if this ever is addressed it will be rewritten in some fashion too.

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Yeah, from the build up we got from Shb, I expected more. Maybe in Pandaemonium we got more. Glad I'm not alone in this, hays!

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I wasn't implying Hythlodaeus opened it himself, merely that he aided the effort...

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Once again remember that the plan revolves around making Hermes think the spatial conflagration was in a different spot, an illusion that wouldn’t work here.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Just because Hermes is versed in the subject doesn't mean that nobody else is or that he was the one who was mainly behind Zodiark.

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He’s the foremost expert on this topic, the Watcher says plainly few knew of them at all. Rewatch the scene with him, he makes it clear how important this information was.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

To my recollection Azem left rather than be kicked off, but I may be wrong on that...

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They are labeled a defector and despite the Convocation having the ability to replace members they instead simply removed the position entirely. Not exactly just them leaving. And no, it’s plainly stated that’s not the case, I’m merely pointing out that the Convocation did not seem open for dissent.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Hermes at the very least could change the flower's color. If it's possible for him it should be possible for anybody…

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No it’s not possible for anyone. The whole point of Meteion wanting to show Hermes our ability to change its color is solely predicated on the fact that Hermes has not seen anyone else change its color and doesn’t believe he’ll find anyone.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Firstly, I dispute the idea that they "denigrate and devalue" life...

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If my car had a a soul and feelings then yes I would feel the need to value it’s existence. Once again, it’s clear the concepts had thoughts and feelings and desire of their own.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

And yet nothing has changed on that front...

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Saying others do it too is not a defense of doing something, it’s whataboutism.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

You're missing my point here...

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How does having a backup plan in case Zodiark is killed before humanity is ready violate her beliefs?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

So many of the arguments about why she had to do what she did center around the notion that all other alternatives were impossible…

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You’ve discovered that oftentimes our desires push us in competing directions. Her foremost concern was to see the Song of Oblivion silenced. That is the impossible she wished to tackle. Saying “nothing is impossible” is not saying that we have infinite time and choices and options, but that if one puts their mind to it they can succeed. And she did.

And yes, the conflict between allowing humanity to makes its own choices and avoiding oblivion is the core of the conflict in her arc. What you see as inconsistent I see as simply a reflection of the complexity of life. Any decision, any form of aid, any impact she has on the world would violate her desire to see people walk free and make choices for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I find it suspicious that Azem during the Final Days was a completely dropped plot point in EW. They didn't leave the Convocation until after Zodiark had been summoned, which would make sense because Hythlodaeus believed in it enough to sacrifice himself and Emet would've been tempered. Azem being the Convocation member abroad, it's likely they were not present for it. However, for whatever reason, they were seemingly not even interested in entertaining Venat or anyone else associated with her.

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When we were in the fake Amaurot the Hythlo shade told us that Azem already left. So Azem probably disagreed with the notion of summoning Zodiark, thus they were already not there when the summoning happened.

But I too find it interesting that they also ignored Venats call. I wonder if they also disagreed with that solution and tried to find a third path.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But I too find it interesting that they also ignored Venats call. I wonder if they also disagreed with that solution and tried to find a third path.

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I'm really hoping the new Trial series goes over this.

Couple points I will make here.

-Dissecting a story is the best way to utterly ruin it for yourself.

-Never apply real life logic, theory or thought to a fantasy story. Its like purposely injecting dealy acid into your body.

- The simplest answers at times are the best answers. To seek deeper or more complex ones, is a excercise in futility and frustration. OP's post is a prime example among others.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Couple points I will make here.

-Dissecting a story is the best way to utterly ruin it for yourself.

-Never apply real life logic, theory or thought to a fantasy story. Its like purposely injecting dealy acid into your body.

- The simplest answers at times are the best answers. To seek deeper or more complex ones, is a excercise in futility and frustration. OP's post is a prime example among others.

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Sorry can't do, mama Hyadelin said we should Hear, Feel, Think, all three, not just the first two.

And that without suffering there is no hope.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Couple points I will make here.

-Dissecting a story is the best way to utterly ruin it for yourself.

-Never apply real life logic, theory or thought to a fantasy story. Its like purposely injecting dealy acid into your body.

- The simplest answers at times are the best answers. To seek deeper or more complex ones, is a excercise in futility and frustration. OP's post is a prime example among others.

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It’s a bit difficult to just look at things in the simplest way when they make things complex, nevertheless though a large part of enjoyment for many people is dissecting the story and lore points and connecting things. This has been a very popular thing to do for 14 for years now it didn’t just become a thing. It’s only now being seen as a problem it seems because this expansion is a bit controversial between peoples opinions on how good it was.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

When we were in the fake Amaurot the Hythlo shade told us that Azem already left. So Azem probably disagreed with the notion of summoning Zodiark, thus they were already not there when the summoning happened.

But I too find it interesting that they also ignored Venats call. I wonder if they also disagreed with that solution and tried to find a third path.

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I mentioned this in another thread, but the Anyder scene makes a point to say Azem didn't respond to Venat's group, versus denying them outright. Absent more information, my head-canon is Azem is off fighting Terminus and trying to save people, so either can't get the message or respond to it. They seem to want Azem to be as uninvolved as possible in the major plot points of the past, given that they're "us", so I'm not holding out for a detailed history of their actions during the Final Days.