Hi SE, can we get rid of the current card system in next expansion, pls?

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Originally Posted by Mansion

As a bandaid fix for 5.X, I'd just like to ditch the seals. The interaction with Divination is problematic in openers, it "forces" Lightning speed to be paired with Sleeve when it should be a MP tool before anything.

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Better off having the MP reduction removed from Lightspeed and AST MP costs reduced across the board to compensate.

And, honestly, I'd rather keep Seals and Divination atop varied card effects than the old Royal Road interactions (i.e. if they refused to balance them). At least it'd further help to give relative weight to the normally situational card effects.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

I really hope SE goes the bowmage route again, keeping AST horrible for two years before admitting their mistakes and reworking it for 6.0 into something that's universally loved.

Because right now what I'm afraid of is seeing AST gradually buffed into a state of accepable mediocrity, something that works but is nothing but a shadow of its former self.
And it's what's happening. AST still feels as bad as in 5.0, but now it's top tier again.

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Honestly, them buffing AST’s potencies was good for the job. Because if it remains firmly last place in terms of healers—and if the gap between it and WHM and SCH remains as substantial as it has been—then that means the reason it’s so underplayed is not because it’s weak: it’s because the core gameplay is flawed. So far, AST is still far behind WHM and SCH in terms of uploads.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Honestly, them buffing AST’s potencies was good for the job. Because if it remains firmly last place in terms of healers—and if the gap between it and WHM and SCH remains as substantial as it has been—then that means the reason it’s so underplayed is not because it’s weak: it’s because the core gameplay is flawed. So far, AST is still far behind WHM and SCH in terms of uploads.

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I have to agree with you there, AST is massively underplayed. It's been the case since 5.0 because it went through major changes and was underperforming in everything, but even with all those buffs it didn't bring players back.

Going through the website that shall not be named, it appears that in all lv 80 content and 4.x Ultimates, AST is played 3 to 5 times less than WHM.
And that's not even to mention the generally lower healer population.

But I don't think SE will do anything until 6.0, they'll find another DPS to rework in 5.2 instead. And in 5.3. And 5.4. 5.5 too.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Better off having the MP reduction removed from Lightspeed and AST MP costs reduced across the board to compensate.

And, honestly, I'd rather keep Seals and Divination atop varied card effects than the old Royal Road interactions (i.e. if they refused to balance them). At least it'd further help to give relative weight to the normally situational card effects.

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I don't think you can have 6 card effects and the seals system.
Maybe three effects and then keep the card duos?
I'm thinking practical, I guess it would be easier for them to remove things and consolidate existing things rather than re-balancing new card effects and stuff.

Removing the MP reduction of Lightspeed is weird. Essentially it would end up being an AST flavoured "triple cast" but it would be far more beneficial for classes with long cast times, which is not AST's case at all. It's valuable because of the load of oGCDs to be weaved from time to time in AST's cycle, but paired with Lucid Dreaming I think it's quite an efficient MP tool. But as Hyomin said, it ends up being used for weaving rather than MP economy.

I've been wondering if there was a way to fuse both systems, here is a rough idea for it,

Seals remain tied to their current cards
Spire changed to Healing received + 30%
Balance changed to DH + 10%
Ewer gives 1,500 mp instantly
All other card effects returned
Spread, RR, old minor arcana returned
Seals cannot be gotten outside combat
Saving cards can be done outside combat
RR does not give seals
Saved cards can give seals
Lord/Lady fixed like current card system but give flat dmg/heals instead
Sleeve Draw reverted back to 4.X version except no Lord/Lady
Divination buffed to 10% dmg up
New ability "Royal Flush" changes Draw to Balance, Spread to Arrow, RR to Spear, MA to Bole, Redraw to Ewer, Sleeve Draw to Spire, Player picks a card and this card replaces "Royal Flush" 120s cd.

This system is by no means perfect and probably way overtuned with what would actually be acceptable but I wanted to try and keep the idea of divination that it forces to not fish for a single card in tact, yea there would still be a "best" card scenerio but the 10% dmg up on divination would keep people from only fishing for crit/dhit up while also adding a way to get that last seal quickly with "Royal Flush" etc.

Now for discussion, honestly i think the new AST card system is being treated like BLU is by SE, it is one of the developers 'baby' and they will fight against(metaphorically ofc) anyone disagreeing with it and not worth changing even when it is the majority of people who played with it/used to play it.

AST numbers are still way too low and that is after being made no1 healer, SE need to see it is a fundamental gameplay change that caused this, not numbers or we will end up with 3.4 AST again and that was broken mess(more fun than now but was definitely broken) which i don't think any respectable healer would ever want repeated especially if their goal is actually balancing healers.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I don't think you can have 6 card effects and the seals system.
Maybe three effects and then keep the card duos?

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You can just as easily as you keep 3 card effects and have 3 seals or 12 card effects and 3 seals... The one is irrelevant to the other except in that the larger should be a multiple of the smaller. Adding Seals merely down-tunes Balance-fishing to make the other reach breakpoints for viability more often.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Removing the MP reduction of Lightspeed is weird. Essentially it would end up being an AST flavoured "triple cast" but it would be far more beneficial for classes with long cast times, which is not AST's case at all.

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Counterpoint: Having MP reduction on a skill that could otherwise be saved wholly for mobility or weaving, where they produce a far more tangible and gameplay-related benefit, is weird.

If the developer’s intentions for Lightspeed were to be movement and weaving related, then they need to give AST another way to recover MP. Especially if they were to remove the MP reduction from the skill. AST is decidedly last place in terms of mana economy—it’s not uncommon to end up MP negative after using Raise or a death. WHM and SCH can recover significantly better than AST.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If the developer’s intentions for Lightspeed were to be movement and weaving related, then they need to give AST another way to recover MP. Especially if they were to remove the MP reduction from the skill. AST is decidedly last place in terms of mana economy—it’s not uncommon to end up MP negative after using Raise or a death. WHM and SCH can recover significantly better than AST.

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The need for a further MP-generating skill is of there own making, unless you consider AST's having greater effective MP costs likewise a necessity. SCH's AF contribution to MP economy is minimal and without any thought or gameplay in and of itself. Would it be so wrong for Thin Air to be unique in wanting high-cost spells pooled over its duration, rather than AST needing yet another copy, while AST would just be given more reasonable costs instead (and its related skills left instead to synergize better with its unique areas of its toolkit)?

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Originally Posted by Nanami_Naniwa

But what about all the people who like it the way it is?

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Make an in game, 1 answer per acount, survey ?
IMHO they should do that everytime they consider a drastic change on a jobs (DOW/DOH).
Create and in game survey. People who feel concerned will give their opinion, the others....welle they did not vote so that means they don't care and see what the majority want.

That's how I see the dev process for a MMO, hand in hand with the players. I get it the game is the dev's one, but it's also our's.
They gave life to it, but we keep it alive by playing it s it should be a team effort