Enrage timer raid design is causing all the problems

DPS checks are what make damage dealing jobs relevant. If you didn't have checks, you'd run an all tank/healer comp and hammer away at fights for hours just dodging mechanics until you cleared. That's also why there's been a push to differentiate tank/healer dps from pure damage dealer dps this expansion.

That's not to say that the design of fights from a tanking/healing perspective is without problems, however. Auto-positioning bosses are anathema to good tank design. A7S was probably the last well designed fight from a tank perspective. They really need to review how they design their fights. The formula is kind of stale.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DPS checks are what make damage dealing jobs relevant. If you didn't have checks, you'd run an all tank/healer comp and hammer away at fights for hours just dodging mechanics until you cleared. That's also why there's been a push to differentiate tank/healer dps from pure damage dealer dps this expansion.

That's not to say that the design of fights from a tanking/healing perspective is without problems, however. Auto-positioning bosses are anathema to good tank design. A7S was probably the last well designed fight from a tank perspective. They really need to review how they design their fights. The formula is kind of stale.

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Its the hard dps checks that most complain about. Nothing wrong with having soft ones. Or even have enough damage going out healers need to constantly heal, so you want dps still, to kill the boss before they run out of mana (soft check).

For them, the dps check being there for every fight is stale.

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Its the hard dps checks that most complain about. Nothing wrong with having soft ones. Or even have enough damage going out healers need to constantly heal, so you want dps still, to kill the boss before they run out of mana (soft check).

For them, the dps check being there for every fight is stale.

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Unfortunately it's here to stay, the enrage timer is there so that you have to do mechanics with minimal deaths to be able to clear, otherwise simply taking a red mage and a summoner to spam rezzes would be a viable progging option in savage raids minus the mechanics where you need everyone alive, like E3S' Tsunami phase.

They could design harder fights with less strict dps checks, but in that case people would just try to speedkill strat it so they see less mechanics before the boss dies, or as I said, red mage and summoner comps would be popular.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Unfortunately it's here to stay, the enrage timer is there so that you have to do mechanics with minimal deaths to be able to clear, otherwise simply taking a red mage and a summoner to spam rezzes would be a viable progging option in savage raids minus the mechanics where you need everyone alive, like E3S' Tsunami phase.

They could design harder fights with less strict dps checks, but in that case people would just try to speedkill strat it so they see less mechanics before the boss dies, or as I said, red mage and summoner comps would be popular.

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I have nothing against the enrage timer itself, most mmos have them, just not everything was necessarily a dps race.

Ofc you are speaking the big truth: there is always speedkill meta...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DPS checks are what make damage dealing jobs relevant. If you didn't have checks, you'd run an all tank/healer comp\

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And why is it our business how they do it? If they want to take two hours to kill a boss isn't it their prerogative? You're making a non argument. People will still bring as many dps that they can simply to shorten the time between starting and collecting their loot.

The community feedback to Baldesion Arsenal was pretty good, people felt the first time like doing a real raid and not a trial. At the same time you can still see that they seem to scared to apply that feedback to new content and once again serve the old raid formula. I don't want wow Version of ff14 either, but the huge dps dependency with no way of recovering once you had too many deaths is demotivating and tiring. E.g.: I don't want to feel like that I have to wipe because my top dps player just died in the opener.

I played almost all savages when they were live and I think the time invest is still pretty big when you arent a midcore/hardcore raider because you still have to beat the dps checks, even if they are often easy. Especially when you try to pug it. The difficulty should be the ability to clear the mechanics, just like in ultimate, then nobody would look at the damage anymore, atleast you can kill it.

There are many ways to make a fight difficult outside of looking at the damage numbers. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes when they design the raids. Elements like in shinryu where you attack the tail to deal a fix amount HP to the Boss once you kill it, or golden bahamut where you get a huge dmg buff for staying alive and completing the mechanics correctly. Or boss fights that have restricted rezz ability like in BA, that's all ways to spice fights up and reward playing mechanics correctly. It would be something else then the standard HP sponge with enrage.

Reading the post. Something just telling me that either this is a troll post over something that's been happening since ARR or the person is new in endgame 8-man raid content. Having enrage timers is necessary in savage, extreme, or ultimate, period. If people want to play for 20-40mins on the same fight, that's where normal mode comes in for that purpose. This shouldn't be hard to understand. It's just something that games do in japan, where you face a opponent where it's hard at first, but the more you play it, the more you understand it's animation, the better you get kind of deal. Yet, this is a team effort so everyone have to get good in their job, dealing w/ mechanics properly, and don't get ko over simple things. Enrage timers should be considered as a challenge, to beat it before it goes off. A plus if you beat it in minimum ilvl cause that shows you are performing well as well the team you are in.

Reason why they do Enrage timer I believe is so they don't do another FFXI raid design where you could end up fighting the same boss for over 24hrs to kill it(One pull).

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Originally Posted by Atamis

And why is it our business how they do it? If they want to take two hours to kill a boss isn't it their prerogative? You're making a non argument. People will still bring as many dps that they can simply to shorten the time between starting and collecting their loot.

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Two reasons.

It makes the DPS role entirely irrelevant. While yes, people will still want faster kills. You don't actually need them anymore. Therefore, you have one role that actually serves zero necessity, which is bad design. The second is it reduces the accomplishment of each fight. There's a reason no one really cares about 24 mans, for example. They're a war of attrition. Savage would become the exact same, especially as worse players would be demanding all tank/healer parties to carry themselves to a clear they really have no business getting. Learn the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It makes the DPS role entirely irrelevant. While yes, people will still want faster kills. You don't actually need them anymore. Therefore, you have one role that actually serves zero necessity, which is bad design.

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Even if the fight would have a low enrage timer, you can still force dps player to be in the team by introducing the right mechanics. A7s (rolespecific jails) or A13s (time gates) as examples. This problem of only tank/healer parties is not really big.

We also have a duty timer so 24h battles like in ff11 aren't possible.

Just dealing damage by doing your rotation correctly is somewhat of a skill but having a few deaths shouldn't make it impossible to clear it imo. Would be better if there is a way to recover the fight. We don't really have any use of cc either in savage, it's just focused so much on dmg. 24man and BA are like what savage should be....