An alternative to parsing?

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Originally Posted by Saikoh

Showing what someone got hit by is not the same as showing who is attending to mechanics. This is an example of my point that some believe the parser is all, when it is just a measuring tool.

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On FFLogs there is a "replay" feature that allows people to watch a fight that was uploaded in the most minimalistic of terms. You are able to see when people move, when the mob moves, damage done, damage taken, healing done/received, abilities used by the mobs, etc.

So, yes, you can actually see who is not attending to mechanics using the data from FFLOGs, replay function, and deductive reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

It is not just that.
Japanese community will discipline themselves for this type of trolling behaviour.
These trolls are outcast-ed and have to change server and the names (still vulnerable to JP community internal blacklist).
English community on other hand will not discipline this type of trolling behaviur; and some will idolize these trolls.
Yoship is showing the emotion of disgust every time someone bring up parer.
It will simply never happens.

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This is a gross assumption, and unfairly idealizes JP. Considering we have actual proof to the contrary, you're simply arguing with anecdote; poor ones, in particular.

For reference sake, a year or so ago someone was scammed out of their house. NA's response? The precise same thing JP did; bombarding the couple with Magitek cannon fire for two days straight until a GM intervened and returned the house. Assuming NA would have any less a disgusted reaction, or that JP is above equally awful people who idolize such trolls is pure and simple bias.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

The issue with parsing is not the tool, but the people who use it.

I couldn't care less if someone is running a damage parser in the background to evaluate their own performance. What I will take issue with is if they decide to spout off about other's performance if it doesn't meet their unrealistic standards or expectations.

I'm never going to outparse someone who is in super awesome crazy gear. It won't happen. Do I put my all into every dungeon and trial that I run? Yes, and I know for a fact that i'm not near as bad as some folks who sleep through their dungeons.

And yet, even with that, i've had people make rude comments in dungeons about my DPS.

So to those who want the tool to just evaluate how they're doing? And see some numbers to reflect on their performance? Thumbs up. To people that are wanting to use it to malign others? Take a long look in the mirror, because you're the ones that are making the dev team second guess allowing this thing's use in the game.

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Contrary to popular belief, people are far less likely to scrutinize numbers without according for certain parameters, such as gear. Will some inevitably be jerks? Yes, but I've also been accused of buying my Savage clears by someone who clearly didn't have a parse going. The majority want a means of measuring their own performance, and a percentage from there want to evaluate the group on a reasonable basis. For example, I was helping a friend some weeks back and we wound up with a RDM who had no business joining at weekly clear run. While I certainly have no need to be rude, I am also not obligated to essentially carry someone. There is a stark difference between...

"Hey, RDM? Your DPS is really low."
"wtf RDM? You fucking suck."

And it irks me the assumption is everyone who parses will always be the latter.

And once again a parser fan misses the point. People aren't worrying about people replaying their performance and seeing what they did or did not do. People are in party that only care about their numbers. Excessive reliance on a parser is very detrimental to team play.

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Originally Posted by Saikoh

And once again a parser fan misses the point. People aren't worrying about people replaying their performance and seeing what they did or did not do. People are in party that only care about their numbers.

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Numbers which are representative of one's performance. You do not know what people at large use the service for; my Ninja and I regularly look over what we did versus what others of our job did, how they optimized, and how we can better optimize for our group.

Am I claiming everybody uses it like this? No. I don't have the data. But neither do you.

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Excessive reliance on a parser is very detrimental to team play.

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Correct usage of a parser is very beneficial to team play.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

I don't think this will ever happen for 2 things:

Many people will be upset look at that 'other thread' for details.
We do already have what we want & a friend can parse a PS4 players DPS.

They allow the mod because they realise if they would ban it they would loose 90% of the raiding community, if they would make an official meter then 90% of the 'non raiders' would leave.
In the end SE wants to retrain as much people as possible for their money.

Maybe a bit of exaggerated numbers but that's how I see it.

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No, they "allow" the mod because FFXIV has no client-side anti-cheat software.

As for why, it's (A) because the game was a hot mess at launch, and they never got around to implementing it because (B) it's a legal minefield, has enormous cost, and (C) doesn't actually stop the most harmful cheaters.

Anti-cheat protection has never worked. Cheaters will bypass it, it's only a matter of time. It's a complete waste of time, money, generally makes the game performance trash, and it aggravates players.

To be clear, it's not allowed. It's a 3rd party program, it is explicitly banned. Using ACT, mods, any 3rd party programs that interact with the game or the game's data in any way, is against the ToS.

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Originally Posted by Saikoh

And once again a parser fan misses the point. People aren't worrying about people replaying their performance and seeing what they did or did not do. People are in party that only care about their numbers. Excessive reliance on a parser is very detrimental to team play.

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That's just not true, because World First teams have often used it in their own progressions. I'm not sure what kind of parties you have been in or what kind of players that you have played with, but over-reliance on numbers is not the usual case. The logs available now are perfect for comparing what the top guys are doing to what you're doing. As far as numbers go, numbers are important. Just this morning, I went into V5S and our DPS was so low that we couldn't even kill the chimney. All of us asked if anybody was running a parse to find out who was not contributing enough so we could work on it together - and this was a PUG group.

What you are talking about are likely parse groups and speed kill groups, which...yeah, those groups only care about numbers. But again, those really are not representative of the majority. Many groups are satisfied with just having a good and getting the weekly clear out of the way.

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Originally Posted by Luin

To be clear, it's not allowed. It's a 3rd party program, it is explicitly banned. Using ACT, mods, any 3rd party programs that interact with the game or the game's data in any way, is against the ToS.

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It's not explictly allowed, hence why there is a don't ask, don't tell policy that is generally adhered to that a lot of people follow. There's not really much of an issue as long as folks aren't going around and harassing people about their DPS. Nobody here is really arguing that it's against ToS. That much, we all acknowledge. The point of the thread, however, is to discuss alternatives that could be somewhat effective at replicating a little bit of what parsers do, like a compromise.

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Originally Posted by Enlial

Well, they really need to add ingame parsing and make the games memory more difficult to scan. From what I understand theres no encryption or obfuscation whatsoever. There are plenty of games out there that dont have 3rd party programs outside of hardcore paid bots simply because the devs made it too difficult to make stuff like that (as an example, ESO used to have an ACT plugin, but its developer abandoned it when the game made its memory more difficult to scan).

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Not fully true, it's not about the memory. ESO has a full API addon support. People (the ones with low DPS) where crying about it so they changed the API. There's still a DPS meter addon, it just shows you how much DPS you do and how much of group DPS you did, party DPS is not available anymore.


"The best you're gonna get is combat metrics which shows your own DPS and how much % of the group damage you did.
There used to be an addon which showed everyone's DPS numbers in the group much like what you ask for, but people were..... sensitive about it. So the devs removed the API"

And that's all I need in this game, SE should do it this way too that way 'poor performers' can remain 'hidden'. The people interested in DPS meter have statics anyway, I personally couldn't care how much DPS pugs do.

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Originally Posted by Luin

No, they "allow" the mod because FFXIV has no client-side anti-cheat software.

As for why, it's (A) because the game was a hot mess at launch, and they never got around to implementing it because (B) it's a legal minefield, has enormous cost, and (C) doesn't actually stop the most harmful cheaters.

Anti-cheat protection has never worked. Cheaters will bypass it, it's only a matter of time. It's a complete waste of time, money, generally makes the game performance trash, and it aggravates players.

To be clear, it's not allowed. It's a 3rd party program, it is explicitly banned. Using ACT, mods, any 3rd party programs that interact with the game or the game's data in any way, is against the ToS.

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Then tell me why Yoshida is OK with it as long as we don't harass people with it?
Then tell me that why Yoshida was WATCHING the livestreams of the top statics racing for worlds first ultimate in which ALL OF THEM shows DPS meters in their game screen. Yoshida even congratulated the ones that won.
Why didn't Yoshida just ban all those people?


Tell me.


Extra note: it's not a cheat. Soon you people will say that I'm cheating because I use voice chat and I talk with my raiding buddies and we tell when bad stuff is coming.

I've never had a problem with people using or not using parsers. It all finitely depends on the user whether the tool itself is used for learning or for personal enjoyment through harassing others with it. And if someone is harassing you non-constructively because they can see your numbers? Well, there's a report feature for that. But, people also need to stop, and I mean stop, jumping up in arms anytime someone offers some constructive criticism regarding their performance in-game. There's nothing factually wrong nor is it a personal attack on you when someone offers to tell you that you have the wrong tank stance on or if you're doing a part of your rotation out of order.

Personally, I enjoy using fflogs as a tool to improve myself, especially since I started doing Savage content. It makes me feel really good when my numbers are even a smidgen higher than the last time and if they're lower? Oh well, off day or I messed up, stuff happens.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You have stone sea sky to check your basic rotation and gauge improvements in damage.

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Easy enough. Just copy everything in the damage log into Excel and start calculating as you wouldn't want to attribute a dps change to a rotation change where in reality it just was luck with crits and direct hits on big potency skills, would you?
Or you'd just do a higher amount of SSS per rotation change and take the average. Very convenient. Sounds like it would really keep people in the game that like to improve their gameplay.