Actually I don't play the undercutting game much. At a certain point I stop and just wait for the cheaper items to be bought up and mine always eventually gets bought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikki
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04-15-2018, 04:34 AMPenthea
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04-15-2018, 04:36 AMMikkiYeah, right now it does. You know why? Because people log out and stop undercutting. Of course eventually it'll probably sell as long as you update your prices daily but there's no doubt it will affect sales to some degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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04-15-2018, 04:44 AMPentheaSo you have just said things will sell anyway if you check daily...which you can do with or without the app...so why are you so mad about the app if you just admitted things will sell anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikki
The only thing I'm "mad" at, and mad is a strong word, is that this is a good opportunity to provide a gil sink for players who could use gil to pay for the app but it's being overlooked. The lack of a gil sink is a common criticism from players. -
04-15-2018, 04:46 AMDreadRabbit
Going to have to agree with the majority here: this is a downright low, insulting move. And people can't say Square Enix doesn't know what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing.
- They tried to turn Deus Ex's pre-order campaign into a mobile-esque cash crab (Augment your Pre-order).
- You needed a dang chart to figure out FFXV's pre-order campaign (and that one isn't even fully accurate, there's still stuff missing. )
- Final Fantasy Dissidia NT has completely gutted the content the spin off franchise is known for supposedly to make room for the online PvP component. Yet despite offering less content, they still charge a $60 USD price tag.
- Wanting to turn the FFVII remake into an episodic game to save on resources yet still charge a premium.
- Deemed their 2013 reboot of Tomb Raider an absolute failure despite selling nearly 4 million copies, because they spent so much on marketing that their target was nearly 15 million copies.
This is not the first time Square Enix's strategy as a company has been to squeeze out as much cash out of their customers as they can with as little effort as possible, and it certainly won't be the last. The company has a horrible history when it comes to budgeting and what they consider worth the money. Promotions and graphics are always on their radar, but actual QoL features and gameplay content tend to be hit or miss because of it.
And since they're using F2P mobile game strategies for this app (free and premium currency), I think it's only fair to take a look at how Square Enix handles their F2P mobile games:
Kingdom Hearts Unchained X: there have been multiple times where if you wanted to guarantee yourself even one copy of a set of medals, you would need large sums of money for that. In one case it was $2,000 USD (Kairi EX and Foretellers fiasco). Not to mention they outright still strip of players in NA of certain features (like voice acting and certain banner types) when other countries (like Taiwan) gets them. For no explanation whatsoever.
Final Fantasy Dissidia Opera Omnia: While by far one of the most generous mobile app games currently on the market by guaranteeing a 5-star relic/weapon with each draw, which one you get is still left up to chance. Because of their pricing for currency you would need the equivalent of $148 USD to fully limit break the weapon of one character. For a team of three that's a minimum of $369.90 USD. If you're a collector? Well at the time I first wrote about the game (not gonna link because I don't want to self promote, not sure what the rules are on that here) there were 27 characters. That's $3,329.10 USD. And more characters have been added since then, so that price continues to grow.
Guardian Codex: Oh this one had a slew of issues, and they didn't bother fixing most of these (as far as I'm aware). Aside from typical F2P currency BS they made it so that the two versions (despite being launched globally on the exact same day) were different in terms of quality and the Japanese one showed in writing what the terms and chances of certain things were. They deliberately hid those details in the NA version. This was before the big Battlefront fiasco that made the app stores make this a requirement.
Mobius Final Fantasy: This one is in some ways far friendlier than most, however you can pay a monthly fee for a premium VIP package on top of spending money for premium currency for the gacha roulette stuff. So basically a F2P game with a lower monthly sub. This isn't a new concept in the mobile F2P space, and it is absolutely not a new concept for Square Enix. This sounds closest to what this companion app is aiming for.
And that's all just the tip of the iceberg. Now you look at those numbers and tell me with a straight face they're not testing the waters to see what they might be able to rake in with premium currency for FFXIV.
Because frankly, with SE's history in terms how they treat microtransactions, I'm not optimistic of how they handle this feature. You can say it's optional all you want, but so were all of the above cases I just described.
The bottom line is if they didn't think people would use it (and therefore give them money), they wouldn't make it. People will use this to manipulate the market board at all times (Fashion Report says hello. Now all you have to do is pay attention to Reddit, then open the app and pop your items up there without even opening the game). If they truly, sincerely only wanted a chat app then that's all this would have been: a free chat app. It's not. -
04-15-2018, 04:52 AMMikkiYou seemed to have missed the part about how it will "eventually probably" sell, meaning not necessarily the same day you listed it or in as great a quantity. Of course almost anything will probably sell if you have it listed long enough and update the prices every now and then but that doesn't mean it's an ideal situation. So yeah, stuff will PROBABLY still sell but lets say you have 20 listings. As of right now, maybe you can sell 18 of those listings by only updating 3 times a day. But with this change, you're only going to be able to sell maybe 5 of those listings. Is that ok with you? Because it's not ok with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
However I agree on your last point. If you're going to have the app at all then a cool way to go about it would be by offering us to pay for it in gil. People who like to work the market board wouldn't be affected by it much since we'd undoubtedly have the gil for it and the premium features are mostly for those kind of people anyway and a gil sink would indeed be nice.
@DreadRabbit; That analysis is truly worrying and I fear for the future of our beloved FFXIV. I really hate microtransactions and that is the sole reason why I have given up all mobile gaming. This is just disgusting. Those prices are disgusting. For a mobile game? 3,000 USD? I feel sick just reading that. And I feel even more sick at the fact that there are still people defending these kind of practices. -
04-15-2018, 05:01 AMAlleoThey still probably used FF14 budget for that. A budget that could have been used for more ingame content. WoW had a Auction app which was completely free. Saying that its not bad just because its not mandatory does not make a good argument imo. I mean savage is not mandatory for this game (dont need it to finish MSQ) yet I am quite sure that people would have problems if they sold it for money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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04-15-2018, 05:25 AMDreadRabbitThe numbers grow worse, unfortunately :( There's a reason why AAA companies like SE are putting all their efforts towards Mobile F2P transaction models: it's a billion dollar industry that rakes in cash for much lower effort. What kind of business person/company would ignore that kind of draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikki
Candy Crush Saga (which is the definition of "you don't HAVE to buy things to progress" ) estimates over $1 million USD a day on iphones alone.
Pokemon Go, despite what few things you can purchase and their limited use, makes just short of that on a daily basis as well.
Never forget the big Granblue Fantasy scandal worth $6,000 either.
And the more people defend these practices, the worse it will get. The only reason Electronic Arts got a slap on the wrist was because of gameplay mechanic progression. Yet look at how much these games are making on just cosmetics, pretty artwork, and frankly, gameplay progression. Gameplay is not just how big your numbers are when you smack a monster (I know you don't think that specifically, that's more for other folks). -
04-15-2018, 05:46 AMKisaiTenshiEvery F2P MMO nickel-and-dimes you for doing basically nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
At one point in time (about 10 years ago) Gachapon was just bonus glamor stuff. Then the F2P games decided to start adding additional stats to it so people would buy all of it.
The "Social" Mobile games came out and basically became nothing but Gachapon.
http://i66.tinypic.com/28gxg78.png
(Hyperdimension Neptunia Re:Birth3 V Generation)
So you get a cycle of "new gacha is better than the old gacha"
And thus no more actual gameplay.
That is the real danger of putting things in the cash shop. When it's simply glamor, and you can pick what you want, you are not under any compulsion to buy stuff you don't want (which is essentially what happens with the coins and primal/raid parts.) But as we've been seeing with the Deep Dungeon and Eureka, they've been sneaking this RNG BS Gacha into the game. That's how it starts. If the new deep dungeon has the same kind of reward mechanic we're in trouble.
Nexon did it that way, they would put the "reward chests" into the game, but if you wanted to unlock a good item, you had to buy better keys from the cash shop. -
04-15-2018, 05:47 AMMikkiIndeed that's exactly the problem. These kind of "products" are made with little effort and only need to be produced once and can be replicated indefinitely basically for free for the company, making millions of dollars at virtually no cost in comparison. I'm not at all surprised that a company will do these things. If we as individuals could make money in such a manner...wouldn't we do that as well? The answer is, probably. Yeah. If we could get away with it and didn't care about others. But there is a famous saying, you know? "A fool and their money are easily parted". It becomes this thought process of, "If someone is stupid enough to spend their money on that, then who are we to judge?" and this line of thinking becomes the defense for doing these practices in the first place. But it's a terrible practice. It's basically saying "I don't care about the people who are supporting me, I only want to see how much money I can make out of them".Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadRabbit
But here's the thing; you can't necessarily fault a company for doing this. After all, as I just said above... most people would do this if they could get away with it. That's why it's so dangerous to have people defending this kind of practice. I have absolutely no qualms with SE trying to make money - or any company, for that matter. But I want them to EARN that money from my pocket. If you are going to make me pay for something extra outside of my sub fees, then first of all I want to see that you actually put effort into it, none of this low effort BS we're seeing with this app. But secondly, I want to see that my money that I am spending extra on your MMO is actually going back into that MMO to improve it. I'm not seeing that with FFXIV as much as it pains me to say. I mean, even the forums. I can't post this without being cut off from a word limit that means nothing since you can just edit a post anyway. And the game itself....don't even get me started on all the issues.
And the worst part is, the way companies that DO get away with it manage to do so is, as you pretty much mentioned, by making it "optional". But absolutely every little thing that is not directly tied to the main story questline is "optional" if you want to push it that way. Do you want to level everything on one character? Well, honestly that's optional. You can just make a new character. What if they made you have to pay to unlock additional jobs? Do you want access to glamour at all? Optional. Want to pay for that too? There are so many things in this game that are "optional", it becomes a very dangerous and slippery slope to just say "well, it's optional so it's fine that they charge us extra for it", especially when not only are some of the things ridiculously overpriced, but also MONTHLY. Although I think we should be given additional space for free due to the item bloat of this game, I would honestly be happy if I could just buy an additional retainer for a flat $20, one time. I honestly don't even buy the bullshit excuse of "they need the money to pay for the server space for your extra storage" because if you fail to pay for your retainer, you lose the retainer...but when you get them back all of your stuff remains. Which means, regardless of if you are actively paying or not, they are storing that data. -
04-15-2018, 05:52 AMDreadRabbitCouldn't agree more :) Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikki