-Before you give up on DRK entirely, keep in mind that the majority of tank busters in the game (and especially in HW) are magical, making Dark Mind pretty great.
-TBN becomes better and better as %dmg reductions get stacked up. The opposite is true for Sheltron and Inner Beast.
-Popping TBN results in negligible (almost invisible) loss to dps, or it is a gain if used to pop delirium at the start of a fight.
-TBN is not gated behind gauge, and can be used outside grit. Sheltron is gated behind auto-attacks or blocks, and Inner Beast can only be used in Defiance.
-It's true DRK has a weakness for having over simplified rotation and over-spammy oGCDs, as well as a hectic opener as you try not to waste MP or blood generation.
---etc etc. The list goes on. DRK is the selfish tank, nearly invincible if played right, does not need or desire to use Living Dead to tank very well. Unlike Paladins, who need to use Hallowed, or Warriors who are straight paper tanks.
Here's a list of tank busters that DRK is great (miles ahead of PLD and WAR) for mitigating.
-01S: Twinbolt.
-02S: Evilsphere
-04S: Thunder III, and on Neo, Aero III
-05S: Doom Strike
-06S: Demonic Shear, Last Kiss, Actually just everything its ALL MAGIC.
-08S: Hyperdrive, Wings of Destruction.
-Lakshmi: Pull of Light
-Shinryu: Akh Morn
-Byakko: Heavenly Strike
So with the exception of 3 fights, DRK outperforms in self-mitigation by a long shot. On those 3 fights, DRK performs equally.
DRK is on par with PLD on dps. Can beat WAR if good luck on Bloodspiller.
TLDR; DRK is more punishing because MP can get out of hand if you're not practiced with it. Otherwise, DRK is great, effective, and flashy. This post recognizes that DRK has sucky abilities, but that's because everything else is so disgustingly strong it would be unfair to buff Living Dead, Sole Survivor, Dark Passenger, or Quietus.
What is the General Consensus?
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03-21-2018, 02:08 AMWarrlordd
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03-21-2018, 04:22 AMAomine1992But that's the thing no one is asking for flat out buffs but the problem is how these skill work currentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Warrlordd
LD is trash no matter how you try to spin it they need to really rework this skill...
DP cost to much mp for what it does and it's secondary skill barely works like what even is this lol..
Soul survivor is completely useless in a raid kind of setting and in most situations it's still useless yea use it every now and than but not much gained from it...
Quietus is actually fine as is honestly...
But people want reworks not just buffs and maybe a utility that isn't just TBN lol -
03-21-2018, 04:27 AMAana
Data:
War>Pld>Drk
Forum 'concensus':
War>>Pld>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Drk
War does most DPS. Pld a smidge behind war. Drk a smidge behind pld. Each by a couple % in damage.
Pld/War mitigation kits are solid and jockey for 1st based on how much a war is in tank stance. Drk is behind by X amount in mitigation (depending on how its measured. Its an inexact science) but still has enough mitigation to be effective in all content.
Group support: Pld by miles>War (shake it off)> Drk TBN. While nice, are not nearly as important as the volume on official forums suggests.
Drk is behind by a bit in every category that matters, but only by relatively small amounts. It's entirely usable. Just not optimal. But anything that is even a fraction of a % suboptimal is always slammed as 'useless', 'unplayable', 'broken' and 100 other hyperbolic terms.
There is truth to much of the forum complaints. But the extreme loudness exaggerates them on every count. -
03-21-2018, 04:37 AMshao32What are You talking about?, DRK is not the best on self mitigation and i Hope dont you think dark mind is used with dark arts, while the other tanks having more free CDs for fluff damage DRK have to save everything for TB taking in general more damage from AA at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrlordd
TBN becomes stronger with more hp yes but that means less chances to make the shield pops with autoattacks and DRK is 200-400 dps behind WAR and 100-200 behind PLD with the exception of S8 where beat PLD so no, DRK cant even dream on that. -
03-21-2018, 05:05 AMTouchandFeelWhile it is true that there is often a penchant for exaggeration, which is not at all confined to DRK players or discussion about that job with the pre-SiO change WAR discussions being a perfect example, however I don't feel that it is quite the way you paint it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aana
If I were to portray it in the same format as you, I would say a more accurate image would be as follows:
DPS
WAR>PLD>DRK
Mititgation
WAR=PLD>DRK
Utility
PLD>WAR>DRK
Overall
WAR=PLD>>>DRK
I feel this is more accurate because, as you said, DRK is behind in every category. It may arguably be by only a bit in each category, but that bit in every category adds up to a greater overall dearth in performance. Get enough grains of sand together and you have a desert.
As far as the "loudness" of complaints, many tried the more measured approach and all it lead to was being ignored by the devs and being drowned out by others complaining about other jobs much louder and then getting heard and addressed.
Can you really fault people that have been shown that being overly vocal and hyperbolic with complaints gets you what you want, for then doing just that to avoid being ignored or drowned out by others.
It may not be what I would personally prefer, but I certainly understand why many DRK feel they have to speak out this way to be heard. -
03-21-2018, 05:14 AMAanaMy only comment is that yes drk is behind in all 3 categories, but DPS is the only category that matters in shaping the meta. Pld was also considered trash tier last expac even though it had awesome mitigation and utility out the wazoo. DPS is the only measure that actually shapes the meta and why I don't give drk a multiplier effect on being worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
I didn't mean to imply the 'loudness' is an exclusive Drk trait. Wars have been loud. Plds have been loud. Blm has been loud. (insert job in FFXI) is loud. Zerg, Terran and Protoss have been loud. Every suboptimal thing ever in a game has cried out at the injustice of being 2% lower than the meta equivalent for as long as forums have existed.
Drk have legit issues. Just like every class that has ever spent time on the bottom of the meta dogpile. And just like all non-meta things that came before and after them, they are obscenely loud about it. -
03-21-2018, 05:49 AMkashi11
I feel like I would be more okay, but still not okay, with being last in every category, if DRK a more useful toolkit and more interesting playstyle. Too many of our abilities are just flat out not useful. And we already have only 1 combo.
Don't forget DRK is also the weakest in sustaining enmity, they rely on other players for shirks and shadewalkers to stay ahead effectively depending on party comp and comparative ilvls. -
03-21-2018, 09:30 AMInfiniDragonTo be fair, DRK players tried constructive criticism at the start, and only started being the Tri-State Pop Off Champions when they saw how well it worked for WAR and BLM. The DRK players thought they were being ignored and started the loud hyperbole and memes to get the attention, just like the other non-meta jobs as you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aana
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03-21-2018, 10:14 AMDzian
Warrior makes my paladin cry..
Vengance 30% shield for 15 seconds with a 120s recast. And it throws damage back at mobs..
Sentinel 40% shield for 10 seconds with a 180s recast...
The extra 10% mitigation just ain't worth a full extra minute on it's cool down imo. Sentinal should be like 120 second cooldown.
Similar thing with bulwark and raw intuition. Bulwark is another 180s cool down when raw intuition is 90s. Not to mention raw intuition is 100% parry compared to a 60% block.. though shelltron is pretty bloody sweet for that. But I still think sentinel and bulwark could both lose 60 seconds on there recast -
03-22-2018, 01:27 AMChrono_RisingWe are undervaluing these defensive utilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aana
o5s: Cover and tempered will keeps your cotank on the boss. Shields from shake it off and divine veil make it so you can keep melee on the boss for head on.
o6s: Party shields make it so you can have the ranged take the stack mechanic by themselves freeing up hollowed ground for covering ground aoes on melee increasing uptime for the party.
o7s: Party shields save healer GCD's and can be alternated in a Divine veil and SiO pattern. Covering prey targets reduces healer babysitting on dps reducing the tank babysitting to regen. Passage of arms keeps the party closer for the boss beam at no dps loss increasing uptime.
o8s: Covering Hyperdrives reduces tick damage so it can be covered by a regen, covering a ranged for double wings increases cotank uptime during trick attack windows. Divine veil and shake it off alternate on Foresakens and light of judgement to save dps, and reduce healing GCDs. Intervention saves cotank mitigation giving more flexibility in handling mechanics.
Defensive utility is absolutely a big thing. Can healers and the party adjust having a dark knight? Sure. But why? This isn't just a meta crisis, this is a "is there a reason to bring a dark knight" crisis. Monk isn't a meta class, but there are reasons you might want to bring a monk. Some have pointed out that dark knights have mitigation for every attack, while true I haven't run into this issue on paladin either and feel I mitigate more than what I would do on dark knight. Maybe warrior runs dry from time to time, but you have your paladin there to share their mitigation with them.
Take everything all together and you are mitigating for less, costing your healers more GCDs healing you and your party, costing your group dps from healers, losing uptime for melees, and doing what still appears to be slightly less damage than the other two tanks. As others have said before me, each thing is little on its own, but a little here, a little there, and a little over there can add up to alot.