Boycotting Dark Knight

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Starting to hate this word "viable".

This is a red herring; if you'd been actually reading these threads you'd know - you keep talking about viability, but nobody else is, and viability has everything to do with content and very little to do with DRK as a job or its balance with other jobs in its role, which is what most of these threads are addressing. Its viable because the content is easy and the job is not broken per se, but it is suboptimal and there is nothing it can do that either of the other tanks can't do better, it has no niche, no speciality.

Piddly potency buffs and +6% mitigation with 15/40s uptime won't fix this. All it will do is make DRK into PLD/WAR Jr. with no raid mitigation tools, which is basically a slightly better version of what we already are.

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Cool the hostility, the comment about viability was in regards to the post directly above my first one in this thread.

The "piddly" buff would equate to roughly 5% dps, which is about how far behind drk is from the other 2 tanks at top level,and the 6% mitigation makes it just slightly less than the average you get from raw intuition (6% with 50% uptime vs 20% with 22% uptime). At that point the only thing they're missing is raid mitigation, lots of suggestions on how to fix it in the various threads.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I, too, want Scourge back, but instead of a dot, I'm thinking it could combo off Syphon Strike like old Delirium and maybe fill your blood gauge faster. Not only does that help with Dark Knight's low DPS by allowing for more Bloodspillers, but adds a much needed alternative to spamming Souleater.

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I would actually greatly prefer this to a combo ender DOT.

I liked old Scourge because it wasn't behind a combo; it was great for multi-dotting stuff quick. I don't really think a combo DOT like Goring would be all that great for DRK's current playstyle since they break up their three step combos with Bloodspiller/Quietus, and the nature of a DOT that's on GCD is that you want predictability. Delaying your three-step combo with 1 or 2 Bloodspillers could lead to potentially dropping the DOT (or capping on blood to put the DOT up) depending on the situation.

Whereas if they made Scourge not disrupt the combo and be a standalone DOT like old Touch of Death it could work, but they aren't going to go back to non-combo DOTs for most jobs, I feel.

Drk is just not fun anymore....i am switching to warrior once i get my 330 weap.

Its really sad because Drk was my favourite job in 3.0...

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

Cool the hostility

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You're confusing hostility with firmness and emphasized reiteration, since after the post I replied to I said "viability isn't really what we're talking about" and you went on again about how the job is viable and can clear content, so I came back, again, with "Viability Isn't Really What We're Talking About.

Its about making the job competitive and giving players an actual reason to take it over WAR or PLD. There currently isn't one. Even in Shinryu, a fight packed with Dark Mind Bait, DRK is taken 1/2 as often as WAR and 1/3rd as often as PLD.

Just a quick word about viability and buffs because I think this is important. If a class is not viable in content (not capable of clearing content), this points to an absolute failure on the part of the development team. If we hold every job to this criteria for recieving attention, not being viable, then no buffs so far have been justified. Keep in mind even paladin in 3.x was viable. Paladins were at a disadvantage in many turns, especially in gordias, but plenty of paladins were able to clear all of the tiers. Paladin needed buffs, the raid tier pointed this out more than anything, but the buffs recieved were not about being viable, it was about being comparable to dark and warrior.

Why wasn't it comparable to the other two? It did less dps, mitigated a particular niche that made it difficult to take other types of damage, and its utility was lower/less valuable compared to the other tanks... Wait, wait I know this class. Its SB Dark Knight!

We are not voting on how this should be fixed, this thread is for people to voice in a unified way that repeating this mistake is not ok, it is a failure on the development teams part for letting this happen again, and that we demand changes to our favorite class to address this imbalance.

I feel like I can tell how a class is doing by looking at its forum and the kind of posts being posted. There will always be some griping to some degree but if it's a wide majority there's a problem. If it's mostly people asking for advice then they're pleased with it and it's probably in a good place. If it's all just memes and lols then the class is probably overpowered. Since SB launch warriors have gone from the first group to the last. Paladins got their kicks in and now they're pretty quiet, maybe a few people asking about materia melds. Dark knight players have been consistently unhappy.

Speaking to viability vs competitiveness, yeah DRK is perfectly viable and I feel 4.x DRK so far is still more competitive than 3.x PLD ever was. The general mood of the playerbase seems to be that it still isn't competitive enough.

we lost our prog indenty cuz war buff no1 want drk on ultimate if ultimate is hardest content it will show what class is underperform/overperforming it needs buff/nerf in 4.2 which is smart from SE.Im gonna predicted we will be rejects of ultimate on tanking.But might be wrong tho.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

we lost our prog indenty cuz war buff no1 want drk on ultimate if ultimate is hardest content it will show what class is underperform/overperforming it needs buff/nerf in 4.2 which is smart from SE.Im gonna predicted we will be rejects of ultimate on tanking.But might be wrong tho.

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There isnt anything we cant already predict before it happens with good enough calculations.
(When I say we, i dont mean me, and anyone from here. Just that its possible)

With a large enough group of people bouncing ideas/theories around, eventually we'll get a clearer picture.

Currently DRK isnt needed to be pushed to its max, in order to see the weaknesses it has.

Once we get ultimate, and if its actually the Difficulty SE claims, then there are only so many things in which the jobs can excel at, until a job isnt viable for the content.
Currently, if we push DPS checks to be so strict, that even 200 dps is a failure, then DRK is incapable of winning.
If DRK can clear the DPS check, then there's room for WAR and PLD to help push it further.
If Raid wide dmg is high enough to actually require PLD/WARs shields, then DRK will be unable to fill in for the other.
So if the content doesnt require the raid wide mitigation from DRK, then PLD and WAR will only make it easier.
(Also the content wouldnt be that hard, if they allow you to skip out on abilities, or stack them in other places to make them easier.)
WAR currently has the most mobility, followed by PLD and DRK. (Though PLD has a slight advantage over DRK, in that it can stack sprint and tempered will, where as drk can only rely on sprint alone, as plunge is absolutely useless for gap closing, except on someone elses screen where it looks like the DRK is further behind than it really is on their own screen.)

I dont feel DRK is incapable of handling TBs, though some like to argue it, its just not realistic enough of an arguement based on what happens in real content.
But it does struggle in "filler" CDs to mitigate auto attacks/constant cleaves. (Slower cleaves are fine with some TBNs.)

The current content hasnt been hard enough to really push DRK, and if content was more like Alexander, we'd see DRK struggling a bit more.

If Ultimate wont require mobility, light mitigation, common raid mitigation, and DPS checks, then its just not an ultimate. WAR and PLD ARE capable of being pushed further. DRK isnt.

EDIT: slightly wrong, DRK can be pushed to use TBN on the MT as a requirement in TB potency, but then PLD and WAR just wouldnt stand a candle in frequency, unless this TB is once every 3mins, then they can help shield the MT.

Lol ran void ark to level my ninja with the new alliance roulette. Thought I'd capture this.

https://imgur.com/a/ZELWw

Typical 24 player content, no one actually picking anything and a Bard ended up tanking sawtooth. Needless to say jokes about dark knight started a flying.

But hey, DRK has a new utility, drk brings joy to people's lives through humor :)

PLD in Heavensward was nowhere near as bad as DRK is in Stormblood.

In Heavensward PLD was better than DRK in Physical fights given their unique kit to handle physical damage alongside their natural shield blocks and as well as their potentially permanent 10% str down. It was not optimal, but it was an option they possessed that had a significant defensive effect. Alongside that, their CD kit has also remained unchanged with the role skills system. If anything, their kit has been boosted with the ability to now block magic damage as well as the introduction of their 3 unique new defensive tools, Passage of Arms, Intervention and boosted Cover.

In Heavensward, PLD had 3 skills over DRK in RoH, Sheltron and Bulwark. Whilst DRK had 2 over PLD in Magical fights with Dark Mind and Delirium. Why DRK was taken over PLD was because of it's superior damage and Delirium(and Reprisal) was way more useful than Divine Veil was for Raid Wide damage.

Come SB and DRK literally lost most of their skills to the Role System with no way of recovering their skills back in their old forms AND only gained a shallow gauge mechanic with 3 abilities that only somewhat patched the gaping hole in their damage.
PLD in SB deals more damage, has more raid-wide utility by miles, and has a better self CD kit.


3.0
PLD
Uni CD: 3 (Rampart, Sentinel, Hallowed Ground)
Situ CD: 3 (Bulwark, Sheltron, Rage of Halone)
Fluff CD: 0
Raid Support: 2 (Divine Veil, Clemency)
Situ Raid Support: 1 (Cover)
Total options: 9

DRK:
Uni CD: 4 (Shadowskin, ShadowWall, Living Dead, Reprisal)
Situ CD: 1 (Dark Mind)
Fluff CD: 1 (Dark Dance)
Raid Support: 2 (Reprisal, Delirium)
Total options: 8

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4.0
PLD
Uni CD: 6 (Rampart, Sentinel, Hallowed Ground, Sheltron, Bulwark, Passage of Arms)
Situ CD: 0
Fluff CD: 0
Raid Support: 5 (Intervention, Cover, Divine Veil, Clemency, Passage of Arms)
Total options: 12

DRK:
Uni CD: 4 (Rampart, Shadowwall, Living Dead, The Blackest Night)
Situ CD: 1 (Dark Mind)
Fluff CD: 0
Raid Support: 1 (The Blackest Night)
Total options: 6

TL:DR
PLD had issues that could simply be circumvent by not playing poorly i.e one perma main tank whilst also giving back to their team. It even excelled in fights that weren't mindlessly catered to DRK.

DRK has no redeeming qualities in SB. It is harder to play for no greater reward, gets slapped around under regular auto damage, and has no clear optimization path because of the poorly adjusted potencies and balance between Blood and Mana, has legitimately dead skills on its hotbar, it's only single support now is TBN, and has to use it's main resource for either Defense or Offense.

DRK now, is truly garbage in comparison to even 3.0 PLD.