What's with all these people single-targetting during big pulls in dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Altena

Sorry to say but you're in the minority if you prefer to run a dungeon slowly.

You evidently don't understand that the community decides the norm.

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Even a minority is still part of the community and if you run into that minority in a pug group, that's just what you'll have to deal with.

I personally don't care either way so long as things die. That's my personal end goal per dungeon. Things die, preferrably not the party >.> but you know, shit happens...

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Alright, since you're knowledgeable on this, wonder if I can pick your brain on RDM specifically.

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Unfortunately, my RDM is sitting at lvl 50 and I haven't played it more than twice.
I am woefully unqualified to answer your question :(

However, an answer does exist.

There are those who specialize in RDM and also like to do parses of their abilities... if you can find one of them I'm sure they can help answer your question. My suggestion would be to try the DPS forum and start a RDM question thread. There are generally those for each and every class who fully enjoy fleshing out specific questions like yours and getting to the bottom of it.

Without a parser, it can be difficult to test extreme-nuance questions on your own.
If you can devise a test on a single target you can use SSS to see if one way kills the dummy faster than the other (a few tests are necessary because of random number generators on your attacks and crit procs).

Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Alright, since you're knowledgeable on this, wonder if I can pick your brain on RDM specifically. What I was advised to do was use Scatter followed by Verthunder/Veraero (to allow for the Verflare/Verholy if you get to a single target, such as a boss, for when you need to melee). But in doing so, I've found I'm often proccing Verfire/Verstone Ready. Is the best option to allow the buff to drop, or should you keep weaving them in? Currently, to account for what I think is a mild OCD, I've been using the procs (which makes Impactful a pain in the backside). But would it be better to do the one, and then follow it up with basic Scatter spam and allowing the buffs to drop if it comes down to it? Or is it better to use the procs to allow for faster generation of Black/White mana, for more melee AoE combos? This is where I really fall apart with RDM.

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I've never played DPS aside from Monk (boosted it to 60 instead), so I'll advise you based on my experience SOLELY as a tank;

Work with your class mechanic via Black & White Mana generation. Pick a target that doesn't do telepathing AOEs (and instead autoattacks tanks all of the time) and then try to burst them down with it while also using Scatter to weaken the rest of the pack.

I would always hard-cast Scatter then follow up with either of the Verthunder / Veraero depending on your Black & White Mana. Weave in any oGCD abilities whenever possible.

To my knowledge, RDMs don't have much AOEs outside of Scatter, Contre Six & Moulinet, and it'll take time to build up Mana to accomodate both the Single target melee combo (for Verflare / Verholy proc) and E. Moulinet.

Reason to focus on autoattacking mobs is that they a source of constant damage pressure on the tanks, and that they follow whenever the tank is moving out of another add's impending AOE, hence breaking the pull stacking positions. Mobs prepping AOE usually means free time for ranged jobs, which are most of the DPSes (save melee) & healers to catch up on their appropriate responsibilities.

Should, however, you encounter a pack of high density adds with low HP, it's better to spam 2x Scatter to quickly wither them down. Low potency wouldn't matter as much when they have mediocre HP values to boot off anyway.

I'll emphasize again; I DO NOT PLAY DPS AT ALL. Take my advice with a grain of salt, or seek better ones from experienced people. I'm just pitching in my opinion as someone who plays the tank role most of the time.

Since the mission of this thread is to increase awareness, here is a NIN trick I figured out when SB launched. You can get 4 AoE jutsus every 2 minutes, so roughly each large pull.

Upon approach to the pack, get Doton ready, Ninjutsu + immediate Hide. Doton doesn't tick right away, so you have a small window to use Hide and reset your mudra and ninjutsu timer due to the Hide change. What this allows is you to use Katon freely, Hellfrog Medium, Kassatsu Katon for massive AoE burst in about 4 seconds time when you get fast at it. This allows you quickly whittle down multiple mobs. When you get more comfortable with that, you can actually Death Blossom in between each of these oGCD actions for even more damage.

Hope it helps, also side note to the people trying to mention roulettes that aren't Expert. the OP has stated multiple times now they are talking about Expert Roulette, nothing else, and that they only run others if they have excess time.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Imagine a scenario with 4 enemies each requiring 2000 potency to defeat (for a total of 8000 potency). Your regular 1-2-3 combo does a total of 150-280-370 potency (total 800 potency every 3 Gcds) which results in you needing to perform a total of 30 Gcds to kill all 4 enemies (total 8000 potency).

In contrast, your AoE action has the potency of 130 which when hitting 4 enemies gives you a total of 520 potency per Gcd (in which we compare to the 1-2-3 resulting in 1560 potency every 3 Gcds). In this case, you will need to hit at most 18 Gcds to defeat all 4 enemies (total 9360 potency).

*snip for brevity*

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Oh! I see it now! The party ends up taking less damage in the encounter using AoEs rather than burning down one mob at a time. Thanks for explaining it in such a clear manner.

Of course, there will always be exceptions. Some mobs are just too dangerous to not burn as fast as possible. For example, mobs which take control away from your character.

Anyroads, I appreciate the time you took to answer my question. I'll improve my play.

*writes down* In general, AoE at three mobs or more.:)

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Here is the answers I got:
BLM is doing fine
MNk uses too much tp to AoE and is never worth it.
DRG uses too much tp to AoE and is never worth it.
I will not have someone without MNK unlocked telling me how to play (When I asked to AoE and DPS was low from it)
No one told me before my dps was low so it is fine

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TP starvation from aoeing is generally a non-issue, provided the mobs are dying fast enough. Which generally means you need both dps to be aoeing.

As other people have said, it really doesn't help that there are designated trash pulls that pretty much tells you to "AoE here", such as the ninjas in doma or the slashers in castrum. These collectively hit quite hard and would be nice to see them all drop in 10 seconds rather than 5 seconds to kill one out of the 8 that's swarming the tank.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

*writes down* In general, AoE at three mobs or more.:)

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It's a good rule of thumb, but I'd definitely encourage adjusting to the context. Bottoming yourself out of TP from aoeing when the mobs are nowhere close to dying (they're either not "designated aoe pulls" or the other dps isn't aoeing) is going to lead out to a dps loss since you frontloaded everything.

An example I can think of right now is deciding how to use your RDM abilties. Jolt II does 240 potency, Aero/thunder does 300, and Fire/stone does 270 potency to Scatter's 100/target. It would take 3 targets for scatter to deal more damage than any of those per GCD spent. However if the concern is incoming tank damage and the mobs are not aoe trash packs, then you'd probably want to do scatter>aero/thunder or opt out scatter entirely in favor of killing one quickly to swap to the next (granted this is frequently not the case for dungeons)

This argument is so dumb I see this maybe never in duty finder majority of people knw their class limitation oh I will put this out there you can argue with me all you want but a DRG pre level 70 that is spamming aoes besides dragon fly and Geri when they are up is bad..The potencies for both death spike and sonic thrust are way to weak and do as much damage a death blossom :/ and lets not forget you wont even hit all the mobs

So its about efficient and aoe isnt always efficient you guys need to pay more attention to what your composition is, two melee don't equal a SMN for aoes so why pull just as much as if you had one.I see tanks pull huge groups and have like a MNK and DRG as dps and wonder why the healer went OOM or the tank dropped before the mobs

Also not blaming healers at all but you are the true masters of aoe and you are essentially a caster, melee that arnt a SAM (they get no excuses) arnt doing much aoe Damage unless they get those weak groups like in doma castle

The only reason I wonder why people only single-target during a big pull is AOE-ing is FUN !! They are missing out :)

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Alright, since you're knowledgeable on this, wonder if I can pick your brain on RDM specifically. What I was advised to do was use Scatter followed by Verthunder/Veraero (to allow for the Verflare/Verholy if you get to a single target, such as a boss, for when you need to melee). But in doing so, I've found I'm often proccing Verfire/Verstone Ready. Is the best option to allow the buff to drop, or should you keep weaving them in? Currently, to account for what I think is a mild OCD, I've been using the procs (which makes Impactful a pain in the backside). But would it be better to do the one, and then follow it up with basic Scatter spam and allowing the buffs to drop if it comes down to it? Or is it better to use the procs to allow for faster generation of Black/White mana, for more melee AoE combos? This is where I really fall apart with RDM.

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Forgive me for butting in.

Generally speaking, just spamming Scatter is enough. While you get the same potency using Scatter and VerAero/VerThunder, you'll spend more overall time on the mobs alternating between single target and AoE spells. Using VerHoly and VerFlare is a DPS loss compared to Enchanted Moulinet (550 versus 200(*). You switch to AoE rotation at 3 targets for RDM, so that'd make the potency 600). You might gain white and black magic faster using scatter into single target, but you gain time on targets.

From how I understood it when I thought about what you were advised and assuming gauge is at 0:
Scatter + scatter = 600 potency + 6 white AND black mana (discounting 25% proc)
Scatter+ VerAero/Thunder = 600 potency + 3 white AND black + 11 to white OR black
Enchanted Moulinet at 30/30 mana.
Double scatter would take 5 GCDs. Scatter + single target takes 4 GCDs because of needing both mana at 30.
Using your procs, Verstone or Verfire, results in a DPS loss of 30 and only a mana gain of 3 over double scatter.
Accounting for Enhanced Scatter, you can gain enough mana for Moulinet anywhere between 3 GCDs or 5 GCDs. Yay for RNG~

With me, I keep the enmity/enemy list open so I can always see each add's HP levels. As soon as I see the 3 final mobs down to low levels, I start doing single target and will hold off using Moulinet, even if I'm already at 3x/3x.

I made a thread about this a few weeks ago. It's terrible. Most dps I come across stubbornly try to single target everything. You sure as hell aren't getting my commendation if you don't help me aoe.