Yoshi-P on Tenacity

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

snip...

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I know you wern't ignoring it but I think the heal received is a significant factor too. It means bigger regens, and bigger adlo/noct shields. The more I think about it the more tenacity becomes a scary stat. When a tank buster comes in not only are you taking x% less damage from it, but you also have an x% larger shield, and you also get healed up faster. Even outside savage that damage reduction and healing received will help a lot in dungeons. At first i was kind of down on tenacity but with your math I'm thinking it's actually quite a powerful stat.

I keep reading about how DH, Crit, DET and/or TEN scale etc, but 9 times out of 10 the discussion centers around damage dealt, and the discussion proceeds along the lines of "Tenacity doesn't scale as well as DH, Crit or DET, so it is trash.".

IMHO that's wrong because you are discussing only one third of the impact of Tenacity as if it were the whole. It's not.

If TEN scales at about 200 points = 1% (the best analysis I could find suggests this), then right now I have an almost 6% dmg buff up 100% of the time; in addition (if scaling estimates are right) I have an almost 6% damage mitigation buff with 100% uptime and a similarly scaled healing buff any time I cast Clemency. If Savage gear allows more than one t6 meld and advance melding of t5 materia, then Yoshi's statement about the impact of Tenacity could easily be on point. Perhaps, we could be looking at anything from 1600 to almost 2000 Tenacity with fully tricked out savage gear. 8-10% damage buff, 8-10 % mitigation buff and 8-10% healing buff, all with 100% up time. I don't see how DH, DET or Crit can compete with that.

How the secondaries are evaluated within the game engine, the order in which they are applied and how could magnify that impact still further.

With DET also affecting healing, and Skill Speed impacting the speed with which skills come back as well as the damage of auto attacks, it seems to be that the strongest overall combination of melds would be TEN>DET>SS. That's probably not the strongest straight DPS combination, but the overall impact on tanks would be greatest starting with Tenacity - as it should be. Of course if some players want to continue melding Str or whatever to maximize their DPS, that's fine, but it seems as if players focusing on TEN will be only 2-3 % behind in terms of DPS, and yet have superior passive mitigation and healing capability.

Since we are tanks, I'd think that mitigation would figure more highly in the discussion. Apparently not.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

IMHO that's wrong because you are discussing only one third of the impact of Tenacity as if it were the whole. It's not.

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Welcome to FFXIV where people will inevitably call you stupid for mentioning anything else than "DPS gain"...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Welcome to FFXIV where people will inevitably call you stupid for mentioning anything else than "DPS gain"...

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Because everything factors into raid DPS, and that's how it is all measured. Mitigation on the tank is a DPS gain for the healers, for example.

The relevance of Tenacity's defensive boosts is entirely dependent on how the boost to Healer DPS from it compares to the difference to a pure offensive stat like DH.

Similarly, look at tank stances. Staying in them for a whole boss fight is a raid DPS loss. It's a gain to drop stance after establishing hate. A lot of math and testing went into that.

Right now, it LOOKS like Tenacity would be in a similar boat. But, until we have more numbers and logs from Savage farms, it's hard to tell.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Because everything factors into raid DPS, and that's how it is all measured. Mitigation on the tank is a DPS gain for the healers, for example.

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And it's way too "easy" to keep a DPS-stance-full-STR-acc-ignoring-tenacity-tank alive.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Of course if some players want to continue melding Str or whatever to maximize their DPS, that's fine, but it seems as if players focusing on TEN will be only 2-3 % behind in terms of DPS, and yet have superior passive mitigation and healing capability.

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Tenacity won't replace str melds on vit accs though, they won't even come close since 125 str is around 6-7% of the total str we have, while 200 tenacity from 5 melds on the right side gives you 1% dps and 1% mitigation.

The benefit of stacking tenacity will depend on how much we can get, since you need to actually make the healers cast less gcd heals on you to make the extra mitigation convertible into healer dps gain. I'd wait for some more tests to be done on it before concluding how good/bad it is, but at the very least it doesn't look bad considering even its dps component is trailing behind det.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And it's way too "easy" to keep a DPS-stance-full-STR-acc-ignoring-tenacity-tank alive.

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It's not that easy to pull it off consistently unless you have healers spamming heals on you all the time. If you make a mistake in mitigation you'd easily drop below what an auto attack could damage you, so the room for error is quite small. It also requires some sort of "cheesing" to have enough mitigation for the whole fight: using lakshmi's vril outside chanchala to mitigate tank buster, while using hallowed ground or holmgang to mitigate the chanchala tank buster, breaking susano's sword before you need to pick up the orbs, so you can save your cds for mitigating auto attacks in the later phase. It's possible yeah, but I wouldn't call it easy. You need skilled tanks and healers, some coordination for mitigation/heals, and high group dps as well.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I know you wern't ignoring it but I think the heal received is a significant factor too. It means bigger regens, and bigger adlo/noct shields. The more I think about it the more tenacity becomes a scary stat. When a tank buster comes in not only are you taking x% less damage from it, but you also have an x% larger shield, and you also get healed up faster. Even outside savage that damage reduction and healing received will help a lot in dungeons. At first i was kind of down on tenacity but with your math I'm thinking it's actually quite a powerful stat.

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Hmm maybe it needs more testing? From what someone said it didn't seem to increase healing at all?

http://i.imgur.com/AfDIl3Q.png

People are saying here it increase self-healing, which makes me think Clemency. This test is probably flawed compared to this one, but it does show that Tenacity affects Clemency.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Hmm maybe it needs more testing? From what someone said it didn't seem to increase healing at all?

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Could be bugged, I believe it is supposed to increase healing received.

tanks should stay to their roles as tanks and quit trying to be dps. they should cap their dex which increase dodge ability and the new tenacity generates aggro better than strength ever did and theyn should stop stacking crit and trying to be dps they need to focus on making heals job easier not trying to pull everything around then blame a healer because they are squishy with no det to make the heals work better for them. if they want to dps then go get a dps class. Don't try and whine when you cant be both with one class. I play a tank and have no problem holding agro and my healers have no problem keeping me healed. if your routines are correct and you have your gears set to play tank instead of being a trying to play dps then all would be better in game. leave the dps to the ones that play a dps class.

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Originally Posted by Aedria

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The OF has gone so far down the rabbit hole I can't even tell if this is a joke post. ; _ ;