Selling clears maybe within the rules of the game - but is it within the spirit?

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

I am not here to argue clearly your experience and mine differe by alot. Just dont give this advice as that is not a solution ... by far not. Is just a mirage and when it goes leaves behind a bitter souvenir.i am still wanting to read a solution ftom you that would benefit the whole as opposed to the single individual... sad indeef

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I get exactly what you're saying. Most FCs evolved from a static group of players who may have even been together years before FFXIV was released. Most will let you "fill in" on quiet days or help you out but that core of players is still there, still slightly elusive & "elite" (used in the correct way, to refer to class). That's their right & I'm not complaining about it but it does make sliding into end content difficult unless a permanent spot opens that you're invited to fill.

First off: I'm against selling clears. However, I am not against them for the reasons I've seen largely being pushed here. I'm against selling clears because once a clear has been sold, you've just taken a potential player out of the mix. Sure, that player might have been rubbish and couldn't have gotten the clear any other way than be carried (largely because they don't care) but it's still reducing the player population. At least in theory, this is a bad idea. It's never just one person when it comes to this stuff. One person knows another person that knows a group of people and etcetera. Once someone else hears their friend bought a clear they are less interested in trying to clear one legitimately as apparently it's common knowledge that it's easy enough to carry a corpse through the encounter.

Regarding the players "not deserving" their carried clears: I've been in all kinds of raid groups in lots of different MMOs over the years. I've never heard a hardcore guild have qualms over someone "deserving" a clear or not. Basically, if you *can* carry someone, then really that defeats the purity of a clear in the first place. Players that are good enough to carry people know that they are that good and have no problems reproducing said skills on command for demonstration. They don't need titles, fancy gear or mounts to show off how good they are. Sure, when a fight first comes out there is some of so called "purity" in getting a clear in a certain amount of time, but after that has expired, they are only really interested in seeing how much harder they can push it... Hence, here is where the "carries" come in as they want to see if they can do a fight they know they can do, but with a person missing.

If someone is super worried about the purity of a clear, then they haven't cleared it or are barely clearing it and are more worried about losing their own drive to try to clear it if someone is just paying for a clear. It's all about them and nothing about the fight basically. I think looking at others for some justification to play a encounter or not is doing it for the wrong reasons personally but I know many of the community at large does this. It's just kind of silly. It's like someone says: "If everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you jump too?!" and you say "I don't know... who all is jumping? Anyone I know?"

It's ok.

Clear sellers don't force buyers to buy the clears. If someone want to give money for a clear, why not help him?

And the answer to the "but then he will join farm groups and will ruin farming" is "what if he was carried by his fc or by someone else but didn't pay for it"? Latter is considered to be a good thing, isn't it?

Isn't buying a clear and getting carried buy a FC/LS the same thing?

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Isn't buying a clear and getting carried buy a FC/LS the same thing?

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I don't think so; at its core, the motivations are different. Getting help from FC mates is definitely more within the spirit of cooperative gameplay.

That said, I don't think most people want to be carried. When my FC has helped me get clears, I've done what I can to research the fight and practice to the best of my ability. Because of that, I was able to contribute when getting my clears, which I'm sure is different than the norm in purchased clears.

Also, people who help each other within FCs tend to build up good will that promotes further helpful behavior within those FCs. People who get helped by friends are more likely to return favors and be more helpful later on. Also, there is certainly a dynamic of teaching/learning that goes on in LS/FC groups that wouldn't logically happen in purchased clear groups.

Purchased clears don't really help build the community, is what I'm getting at.

Hmm.... would it be wrong to charge Gil in order to train people how to play as opposed to just carrying them through content?

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Hmm.... would it be wrong to charge Gil in order to train people how to play as opposed to just carrying them through content?

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The problem is it's not as simple as teaching people how to play; otherwise, "good" players would just be one-shotting raids as they came out.

This game's difficult content is only hard because it's so heavily scripted with punishing mechanics. It's more about trial/error and memorization than it is about "learning to play" and simply being reactive.

However, if you offered a service that actually trained people to beat specific encounters, then that would actually be pretty sweet. One of the biggest barriers to learning is finding seven other people who can help you make progress to learn later stages, and a service like what you've proposed would immediately address that.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

I don't think so; at its core, the motivations are different.

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If you ask your FC to help you with, for example, titan ex (unsync), it will be:
1. You need to create a party, of 4-8 people (if you pay, sellers create party for you)
2. You may stay alive during the fight (if you pay, sometimes sellers don't mind you being alive, if it can't wipe them)
3. If you die, or especially, fall from platform, group will just clear without you. They won't jump from platform at restart just for the sake of your learning (if you pay.. same)

In theory, you can pay 7 people to teach you the fight, but I'm afraid it will be much more expensive (like in real life, individual lessons are quite expensive too)

About community: people who can create a group, they have no reason to buy clears. People, who don't do this and prefer to buy a clear, in the case if clears are forbidden, they just won't do that trial\raid and probably will just leave the game. So I don't really see how this affects community.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

If someone want to give money for a clear, why not help him?

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The reality is there are 3 or 4 people I see advertising their services almost daily on the party finder. Sellers aren't in it for anyone only themselves to line their own pockets. If they we're helping people they'd set up a learning party for them perhaps solicit a few of their friends that also know mechanics and get them a clear.
But I get it I really do, it's about supply and demand. But it's a damn shame.

It shouldn't be frowned on at all.

As long as the player didn't summit into purchasing gil via RMT, it shouldn't be a problem. It still takes time, skill, and effort to make money. Especially to meet the ridiculous demands of some sellers.

Say someone never did any hardcore content but they're hardcore crafters. Maybe they don't enjoy raiding but they want the items. Did they still not earn the items by finding a roundabout way to acquire them through making money? They avoided the headaches of static, learning optimal dps rotations and avoided having to gear themselves. They worked for their money and used their time wisely. Some call them lazy but really they're genius. After all. Glamour is the real endgame and gil is not useful for anything else.