Astrologian misconceptions

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

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I'm not talking about advantages. I'm talking about his opinion on how "fun" AST's DPS rotation is to him. It is a perfectly valid opinion because it is his opinion. I never claimed that WHM's DPS rotation is factually more fun than ASTs. All I did was tell you how Aero I could be used and I talked about the frequency of which buttons he presses on his hot bar. If he's not having fun with it, he's not having fun with it.

Your "Holier than thou" attitude when it comes to AST is a little out there as well.

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

I'm not talking about advantages. I'm talking about his opinion on how "fun" AST's DPS rotation is to him. It is a perfectly valid opinion because it is his opinion. I never claimed that WHM's DPS rotation is factually more fun than ASTs. All I did was tell you how Aero I could be used and I talked about the frequency of which buttons he presses on his hot bar. If he's not having fun with it, he's not having fun with it.

Your "Holier than thou" attitude when it comes to AST is a little out there as well.

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Did you even read what I said about Aero in the first place? No. You also didn't read when I said that you can use Aero on AST (and SCH). So, please, stop replying to only half of the argument.

An opinion is not valid just because it's an opinion. If you ignore half of the data and say something claiming it's only your opinion, that does not make your claim valid; it can make you dumb.

The first person I was replying to had issues with AST because he doesn't know how some things work. That's not a valid opinion. He finds Aero more fun and useful than Combust because of the initial hit, and claimed that this aspect made WHM more fun DPSwise. Not only he didn't know that you should be using Aero as AST (as you should as SCH), but he also didn't know how DoTs work, what's the actual benefit of Aero or Combust, and he also didn't know how off-GCD skills work. So, please, stop saying that his opinion is valid; his opinion is fruit of ignorance, and it's not valid precisely because of that. Not pointing it out is not polite, nor humble, and it defeats the purpose of having a forum.

Ignoring data? What are you even on about?

I'm talking about Roxas finding the DPS rotation on AST boring. I find ninja boring but my buddy can't get enough of it. Is he the fruit of ignorance because I don't agree with him?

And no you're wrong. Aero isn't a DPS loss most of the time if you're properly using Fluid Aura without clipping the GCD. Aero should have a 60% uptime in relation to 100% uptime on the target with proper offensive oGCD usage. (obviously for WHM)

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

Now tell me: why is doing it as WHM a nice way to DPS and doing it as AST a problem? Double standards.
It's so annoying having to respond to ridiculous claims over and over, so please stop.

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This is the reason why responded to you in the first place. If damage based oGCD skills tickle his fancy and green swirly lines gives him butterflies in his stomach then why do you have to jump on him for that?

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

The first person I was replying to had issues with AST because he doesn't know how some things work. That's not a valid opinion. He finds Aero more fun and useful than Combust because of the initial hit, and claimed that this aspect made WHM more fun DPSwise. Not only he didn't know that you should be using Aero as AST (as you should as SCH), but he also didn't know how DoTs work, what's the actual benefit of Aero or Combust, and he also didn't know how off-GCD skills work. So, please, stop saying that his opinion is valid; his opinion is fruit of ignorance, and it's not valid precisely because of that. Not pointing it out is not polite, nor humble, and it defeats the purpose of having a forum.

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I never said Aero is better than Combust, neither I said that WHM is more fun. The thread is about why people think AST is bad or just worse than the other healers.
Of course I know you should use Aero as every healing class, and even told Aero is important to AST, after all it's the only instant cast skill they have that can do an initial hit on something to help with some mechanics...

If WHM has a wider tool set than AST, it's obvious they have more things to do. Even if they're locked behind a big CD, their skills are used sometime. If you can't spam assize it doesn't make the skill unusable and if you think there is no content up up to the skill, this doens't mean it's not there. And even if you use it every other pull, it's still something you can count on. AST can't count on skills like that anytime.

It's not that I want to make AST a copy of WHM, every class has its perks and i'm ok with all of them. We shouldn't discuss which class is funnier either, because that's personal. MY OPINION is that you have more options as WHM and SHC than you have as AST, it doesn't make the AST job bad - but if we had those options in battle, AST wouldn't be worse either.

As for what I do or don't know: show me a FACT I said that is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Roxas_Andrade

I never said Aero is better than Combust, neither I said that WHM is more fun. The thread is about why people think AST is bad or just worse than the other healers.
Of course I know you should use Aero as every healing class, and even told Aero is important to AST, after all it's the only instant cast skill they have that can do an initial hit on something to help with some mechanics...

If WHM has a wider tool set than AST, it's obvious they have more things to do. Even if they're locked behind a big CD, their skills are used sometime. If you can't spam assize it doesn't make the skill unusable and if you think there is no content up up to the skill, this doens't mean it's not there. And even if you use it every other pull, it's still something you can count on. AST can't count on skills like that anytime.

It's not that I want to make AST a copy of WHM, every class has its perks and i'm ok with all of them. We shouldn't discuss which class is funnier either, because that's personal. MY OPINION is that you have more options as WHM and SHC than you have as AST, it doesn't make the AST job bad - but if we had those options in battle, AST wouldn't be worse either.

As for what I do or don't know: show me a FACT I said that is wrong.

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Your initial post was a reply to my comment on another post, so look at what the person posted to know what I meant.

And good luck counting on Assize for DPS; it has a pretty effect, specially when it misses more than half of the targets in level 60 content and you want to cry.

It's not a fact that WHM and SCH have more options than AST; they have different options, that's the fact. It's also a fact that AST can't have those options because if it did, the job balance would be broken. Would you take a WHM to any actual content if AST could match it in AoE burst (both healing and damage), while still retaining the ability to buff party members with cards and keeping its mobility? If your answer is yes, then you'd have a hard time finding a group, since AST/SCH would be considered mandatory in that case.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

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The fact that people are still stuck in 'The WHM job' and 'The SCH job' is a problem more than anything.

That and the fact the way SCH plays is just disgusting. Arguably highest comfort and highest potential in way too many areas. You don't need to be a great SCH to do content and a great SCH beats a great N.AST hands down (and you don't need a D.AST anyway). And I say disgusting comparing it to either AST or WHM.
I don't even know why Nocturnal Sect exists if they intend to leave SCH like it is: programmers need to make more exceptions, designers need to work around it, PvPers hate seeing an AST run around (unless on their side) and in PvE the amount of things you are outclassed with by a SCH I can't even count on two hands. If anything, N.AST feels like having side-wheels on your bike while learning to ride it and the moment and Diurnal is like taking them off and gaining some speed (literally) in the current scheme of things.

Now compare AST to WHM and they actually have proper weaknesses and strengths, and they will both see daylight in fairly equal ilvls. All SE needs to do is actually design fights so that one isn't consistently favored over the other. I don't even know why people are still debating WHM/SCH > AST/SCH when most are near ilvl 210 and we have no idea how encounters (or balance) in 3.2 will be anyway.

Edit: Though I bashed on N.AST, I do enjoy Nocturnal Sect in every way from a personal point of view and I much rather play AST and go WHM/N.AST than SCH and go WHM/SCH, if my partner can only play WHM. I just don't see Nocturnal Sect's worth from an advantage/disadvantage point of view and it could be so much more if either SCH was changed or Nocturnal Sect/AST as a whole was changed. However, WHM/N.AST is fine and perfectly viable for all content.

This is the case with all of the new jobs, and its happening because all of them are edging out another job of their type under specific circumstances.

I main DRK and I have been trying really hard to stamp out misconceptions and misinformation everywhere I find it but its still out there. Yoshi P did say that DRK/AST/MCH are all "advanced" jobs and have a much lower skill floor/higher skill ceiling than those before them. They all have niches. My raid group actually has all 3 new jobs in it. (DRK/WAR/WHM/AST/DRG/NIN/MCH/BLM) DRK is almost rendering PLD obsolete in the MT department as they can bring pretty much WAR-level deeps in that position and still survive everything, with less situational utility to boot. In a group with only 1 caster and very DPS-heavy tanks MCH is a big raid-DPS boon, and their burst is no joke. Not to mention they have just about every utility imaginable.

And AST... I love my AST. Honestly, I feel like the healer that needs help is WHM. Its extremely lacking in party utility and a raid group with MH AST and OH SCH brings incredibly high raid utility. AST pairs well with either one. People nitpick its basic healing/DPS abilities but I will tolerate any of them being weaker than counterparts on WHM/SCH because those cards are no. fucking. joke.

AoE Balance and Arrow are epic raid boosts, especially in a comp like mine where we've got Storm's Eye, Disembowel, Battle Litany, Trick Attack, and Hypercharge we have raid DPS utility out the ass and back in again. Only with Fairy buffs could we have more, and our WHM is such a beast at her job we're not about to make her switch. But AST is not a bad job by any means. Harder to play? I'd imagine so. But the utility it brings in the hands of a good player is incredible.

Oh, and when I get an Arrow with Blood Weapon up my GCD is like 1.9 seconds. I become Sonic The Edgelord. I may be somewhat biased :3

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

This is the case with all of the new jobs, and its happening because all of them are edging out another job of their type under specific circumstances.

I main DRK and I have been trying really hard to stamp out misconceptions and misinformation everywhere I find it but its still out there. Yoshi P did say that DRK/AST/MCH are all "advanced" jobs and have a much lower skill floor/higher skill ceiling than those before them. They all have niches. My raid group actually has all 3 new jobs in it. (DRK/WAR/WHM/AST/DRG/NIN/MCH/BLM) DRK is almost rendering PLD obsolete in the MT department as they can bring pretty much WAR-level deeps in that position and still survive everything, with less situational utility to boot. In a group with only 1 caster and very DPS-heavy tanks MCH is a big raid-DPS boon, and their burst is no joke. Not to mention they have just about every utility imaginable.

And AST... I love my AST. Honestly, I feel like the healer that needs help is WHM. Its extremely lacking in party utility and a raid group with MH AST and OH SCH brings incredibly high raid utility. AST pairs well with either one. People nitpick its basic healing/DPS abilities but I will tolerate any of them being weaker than counterparts on WHM/SCH because those cards are no. fucking. joke.

AoE Balance and Arrow are epic raid boosts, especially in a comp like mine where we've got Storm's Eye, Disembowel, Battle Litany, Trick Attack, and Hypercharge we have raid DPS utility out the ass and back in again. Only with Fairy buffs could we have more, and our WHM is such a beast at her job we're not about to make her switch. But AST is not a bad job by any means. Harder to play? I'd imagine so. But the utility it brings in the hands of a good player is incredible.

Oh, and when I get an Arrow with Blood Weapon up my GCD is like 1.9 seconds. I become Sonic The Edgelord. I may be somewhat biased :3

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I said to my raid group that I was considering switching to WHM for A3S progression and the four DPS in the group screamed THE F**K YOU ARE, WE WANT CARDS! in voice chat. It was very nice to see that all the effort I put in learning their rotations wasn't wasted; they notice my cards, and that's the biggest concern of every AST. For my group at least, it pays off, and whenever I run content (like Thordan) as WHM, the overall DPS loss is noticeable, so the group is more comfortable with the SCH having to drop Cleric every now and then to use Indomitability than it is with me being able to handle all AoE damage by myself.

I don't personally like playing AST, but I am of the opinion that the best party comp right now is diAST/SCH simply because of how much raid utility the cards and the fairies give. However, it's also true that Astrologian has a higher skill cap than WHM because it's slightly less reliable and requires much much more micromanaging with cards and royal road and whatnot. Not to say AST isn't reliable, but WHM is just easier with the higher potency and bigger range.

It's true that NoctAST can't really compare to SCH as a barrier role, but I don't think that's entirely a bad thing per se, since AST has the cards regardless of their sect. In any case, the thing that makes SCH stand out the most is the fairy, in my opinion, and the piss easy MP management the class allows.

The job is completely reliable in all end-game content, any notion that it isn't is a player issue. AST regen ticks/potency isn't much of an issue, aside from the amount of GCDs you could have "free" on WHM compared to AST over the course of a long fight if you got full value from each tick. The latest potency enhancements to AST healing potency was in my opinion to make up for not having the MND buff when replacing a WHM. On the other hand you also have to manage healing differently, Aspected Benefic has the front-loaded heal over WHM Regen, which is why it costs more MP.

Range "issue" is a bit overblown. Stems from White Mage mains being used to 20y Medica II. Scholar skills including Whispering Dawn is 15y. Of course someone will say they are not the main healer, and yet they were given an enhanced AoE toolkit this go around, albeit with resource usage. In the end it takes is raid and postional coordination.