Quick question to all dps people in regards to dps in general

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Issue was mainly in 3.0 but it can be now too: "Hey, this bard is doing barely more dps as a tank (war). Should we kick him?"

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Remember too that bard brings other things to the table. Having a BRD also means party resource generation, an increase limit break charge rate, and skills like Foe Requiem that will increase the dps of the group's casters.

Serious question have you ever encountered a situation where a party with 1 planned slotted bard was dropped because they weren't out dpsing WAR enough? If so that bard, I'm guessing was probably replaced by another bard, a machinist, or another dps class. In other words, they weren't replaced because WAR dps was too high. They were replaced because dps class "X" could meet the needs of the party better. Even if WAR dps was lowered, it wouldn't prevent the bard from being replaced by class "X". To prevent that you'd either need to buff bard or nerf class "X". It has nothing to do with WAR.

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Originally Posted by Februs

The problem with this is that Dps checks are no longer the single responsibility of Dps. This pretty much eliminates varied play styles among the three tanks. War's are still the preferred Tank, because they make high Dps checks attainable even with bad/lazy Dps. Pld's have essentially been removed from end-game content, because they have the lowest Dps. Even if a Pld is brought along they are not permitted to fully utilize their defense. Moves like Stoneskin and Clemency are now written off as wasted time that could have been used for helping the Dps, when, in theory, they should be actively used during the fight to help the healers. Worse yet, some Dps will under-preform because they know that there are now 5 other players helping the Dps meet the check (7 if the healers are super active). Compared to the way things were before, I don't think this is a "better" way of designing end-game content, but SE has paved themselves into a corner because of the ridiculous kit they have given War's.

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DPS checks have always been the responsibility of the whole party in end-game content. The advice I've seen for tanks has always been "have enough defense/HP to survive the biggest hit you'll need to and focus on DPS." This isn't something that magically changed in 3.0. The high end of skill for tanks and healers has always been "How much DPS can I do without causing people to die?" since at least SCoB, the higher expectations of Alex savage simply make this more apparent.

I find it weird that you're blaming things on WAR, when really it sounds like you're complaining that DPS are performing poorly and expecting the tanks/healers to make up the difference for their poor performance.

FYI, I have only seen one warrior push similar numbers to my DRG, and he outgeared me significantly at the time. I can't say that I'm seeing a ton of high-skill WAR, though.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Because War's can push Dps values, Dps checks have skyrocketed in HW. This makes sense, because if the Dps Checks were not raised any group rocking 2 Wars would basically be packing 6 Dps and have a ridiculously easy time meeting checks. Dps checks would only be difficult for groups with Pld/Drk (which would essentially have the correct fight makeup of 2 Tanks 4 Dps and 2 Healers). War groups would get a free pass, which means no one would ever play as Pld or Drk. Solution? Easy. Increase the Dps check.

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Oh my god, there's just so much wrong with this... but I'm not going to do this statement without further elaborating.

First of all, yes, warriors do good dps, but 1) they have always done that and they are still not as high as dps classes, if they are, the dps must step up. 2) You're making it sound like war would out-dps pld and drk by any significant amount, which is just not true. OT pld/drk does slightly less dps than war, but that's about it. The reason war is so good is not in lolfellcleave in the first place, it is in the broken'ess of equilibrium and storms path. You could nerf fell cleave by half it's current potency and war would still be an auto-pick for every group, the job is just too good and well rounded in general.

Also the reason why dps checks are so high this tier has nothing, and absolutely nothing to do with war. It is just SE's poor way to make content artifically 'hard', because people were crying that fcob was too easy. That being said, what's making A3/4s hard is not even the dps check anymore at this point. Outside of savage there's nothing in that regard anyway, because bis/ravana/thordan ex barely ever had a tough dps check.


@viewtyjoe

Thanks bro. I like sane people, but they're hard to find sometimes it seems. ^^

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Originally Posted by viewtyjoe

I find it weird that you're blaming things on WAR, when really it sounds like you're complaining that DPS are performing poorly and expecting the tanks/healers to make up the difference for their poor performance.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Also the reason why dps checks are so high this tier has nothing, and absolutely nothing to do with war. It is just SE's poor way to make content artifically 'hard', because people were crying that fcob was too easy.

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Yes and yes, but you're both misunderstanding what I meant, which is my fault for being vague and misleading with my words.

I wasn't trying to lay blame or point figures, and it was wrong of me to single out War's to such an extent. I was just referencing the current prevailing attitude for end-game content, which is that you must bring a War because of Dps checks.

Personally, I've never seen a War meet my Drg's level of Dps, ever, but that doesn't stop people from going on and on about Fell Cleave being an asset to Progression groups, despite the fact that Drks can outdo War's in the MT position. Only Pld's fall behind by any noticeable degree, and I don't think it's hard to see that Pld's have been neglected until they over-gear the content.

I also never meant to imply that Tanks were somehow except from party Dps. I only stated that Dps checks were the primary responsibility of the Dps (it's kind of their job). Back in the second coil days no one batted an eyelash at a Pld who self-buffed with Stoneskin to brace for Raven's Ascent. Does that mean that Pld's didn't contribute to Dps pre-3.0? Not even a little. Now, though, such self-buffs are considered a waste of Dps because SE made the checks so much more stringent. Personally, I think that MrCookTM is right in saying that it is an artificial difficulty increase which is easily bypassed by subsequent patches and increasing gear levels.

I only singled out Wars because of the current attitude towards their Dps, and the fact that their higher Dps values (especially in the OT position) makes Dps checks easier in comparison to any party rocking with a Pld. It's not strictly that War's are the cause of the current high Dps check meta (which is what I wrongfully made it sound like in my other post). They just have the advantage.

The problem isn't laid at only their feet. Limp noodle Dps and unbalanced Pld's are just as much to blame. The deficiencies of Pld have had a spotlight shown on them since 3.0, and Dps fulfilling their full responsibilities of their job haven't really changed, but the newest wave of HW players who may have skipped through the Coils entirely (or just run them unsyced) are unprepared for what is expected of them.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

If you want to checkout what other people are doing differently (faust for example), you may look at: http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...bal&spec=Ninja

You even may go into the details of the specific fight from that table and watch the "replay" and see their rotation. Maybe it will help.

P.S. But probably it is just gear, sometimes I forget, that not everybody is i210.

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Yep! I went from iLv202 to iLv204 today from upgrading my Eso head and Eso ring to the iLv210 versions. I have been in groups where, outside of me, the lowest person was iLv208. Surprisingly, they either trolled the run or really didn't have a clue.

Is a warrior the only hybrid class in this game? Like my real question is this why is it ok for one tank to do say around 2/3rds a dps dps and the other 2 tanks can't do that?
unless they are over geared I've course.

The warriors kit makes them best overall main tank and off tank while yes drk could possibly be better main tank but as for the part where people say a PLD DRK do ok dps for
off tank is so not true especially the PLD. Like yes for a tank dps PLD DRK off tank they do ok but how does their kit benefit the party like wars in off tank and main tank?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

The warriors kit makes them best overall main tank and off tank while yes drk could possibly be better main tank but as for the part where people say a PLD DRK do ok dps for off tank is so not true especially the PLD. Like yes for a tank dps PLD DRK off tank they do ok but how does their kit benefit the party like wars in off tank and main tank?

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From the number crunching that I've seen over on the Tank forums, at the moment it looks something like this:

• Best In Slot Main Tank: Dark Knight.
  
  
• Best In Slot Off Tank: Warrior.
  
  
• That Other Tank: Paladin.

But this is strictly from a Dps standpoint.

All of the Tanks were designed to have their own specific utility, but not all of that utility meets the current meta of the game.

Drks output high MT dmg, so they can help the Dps even better than Wars while MT. On the flip side, though, they don't have the same strength in Self-healing that War's have, so they don't do a lot to help Raid Healing (specify healing. Not to be confused with mitigation or effective healing). Drks also lower magic dmg to the party (if there's not already a mnk in the group) as well as overall dmg to the party with Reprisal and Delirium.

Pld's have pretty good (could be better) Tank Buster/Cleave/AoE dmg utility (Again, not specifying mitigation so much as utility. Moves like Clemency, Divine Veil, Cover, and Stoneskin), so they can aid healers more than any other tank. In fact, Pld's have more moves than any other tank which effect the overall party or specifically targeted party members (mostly for healing or dmg, but never Dps). On the flip side, they do abysmal Dps, so they do very little to help with Dps checks (it should be noted, though, that OT Pld Dps is actually very close to Drk OT Dps, because Royal Authority has a consistent Dmg potency that exceeds Drk Dmg unless buffed with Dark Arts).

Pld's are in the worst boat, because their effective utility is broken (a lot of moves that have extremely niche uses, too long CD's to be helpful, or just generally not as effective as they could be). The current meta of the game is written for high Dps checks rather than actual raid mechanics, so even the moves that a Pld could potentially take advantage of in every fight (such as stoneskin or Clemency) are often overlooked in favour of doing more dmg because the Dps checks simply do not allow for the Pld to take 3 seconds out of their rotation to actually use these moves.

War's help both the Dps and healers by outputting high numbers and having fairly extraordinary self-healing. They're not perfect, mind you. Even with self-healing they require more healer attention than Pld's and Drks, and they don't have the same kind of ease of use CD's as Drk and Pld's. Dps is easy for them, but Tanking requires a higher skill ceiling to mitigate the same amount of dmg. That being said, they are extremely balanced and have an answer for every situation, which is why they are looked upon so favourably.

Wars have slashing debuff too that helps all the tanks and the nin , -10% dmg taken is a must have war is the only job that can keep the debuff up all the time (DRK one is a proc and 1 min CD so is unreliable )

Wars have huge burst both single and aoe , the offesnive stance boost dmg + crit % on every Abandon stack, the debuff chain boost dmg by 20%.... Wars atm have too much going for them ... being a tank , with the best dmg and best utility .

Drk are doing more dmg than War as MT ,but thats because War as OT are way ahead.

Pld on the other hand ....they lack dmg and the "utility"... STR debuff is meh , all the big dmg attacks are usually magic...casted heal = no dmg for some seconds... the point is that bringing a pld is losing like 500 dps and u gain nothing in return.

Ppl still bring MCH/BRD because they are always nice to have they boost dmg and regen resources but once the PT knows the encounter....the utility (outside dmg boosting) is not that usefull...

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

Is a warrior the only hybrid class in this game? Like my real question is this why is it ok for one tank to do say around 2/3rds a dps dps and the other 2 tanks can't do that?
unless they are over geared I've course.

The warriors kit makes them best overall main tank and off tank while yes drk could possibly be better main tank but as for the part where people say a PLD DRK do ok dps for
off tank is so not true especially the PLD. Like yes for a tank dps PLD DRK off tank they do ok but how does their kit benefit the party like wars in off tank and main tank?

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^ not a dps job/class issue at all lol.
You should check out the tank forum as the topic gets discussed again and again. Lots of good arguments (bad ones too xD) and info to check out.
As for a quick summary:
If you make all tank dps equal, the tank with the most tank or the most utility is always superior.
Vs physical dmg, PLD/PLD would likely be a thing
Vs magic/mixed, DRK/PLD would likely be a thing
^ where did WAR go? DPS is its thing.

DPS actually do deal about double the damage of tanks, when the tanks are in their tank stances. Which, to the fault of the current raid tier, is almost never. Tanks forced to stay in tank stance can rarely output more than 800-900 DPS, in practice closer to 700. Its not hard for a DPS to double that. The problem is in new raids boss damage output has not scaled with the increased bulk of tanks. So our tank stances have become more like cooldowns than stances.

WAR and PLD in particular do not have to work hard at all to hit their DPS ceiling. As a tank that used to main DPS, I can say that DPS rotations are infinitely more complex in comparison, regardless of how "easy" a lone DPS thinks their rotation is personally.

If any tank comes close to having to work for its DPS like a DPS does its probably DRK. Tanking out of tank stances is actually required to hit the job's DPS ceiling, which, yes, IS higher than OT WARs (under specific circumstances and with infrequent interruption/high uptime). 6 oGCDs with 20-60s cooldowns, heavy mana management, and Dark Arts which is popped in a DPS rotation every 5-15 seconds, make it extremely button mashy, fast paced, and intense, feeling more like a DPS than any other tank in terms of "feel". They have many oGCDs and they frequently come off recast at almost the same time and there's a specific mana-to-potency efficiency priority that has to be followed with what you pop and/or weave into your rotation first, along with Dark Arts usage. DRK is also the only tank that knows the joys and pains of double-weaving, which no other tank really needs to learn to do in the same way a DPS does. Gritless tanking is encouraged and the sacrifice is large, but there are specific DPS benefits to both being out of tank stance and being hit, so this is the only way to maximize the job's DPS.

Anyway, in 3.2 most of this will be moot since they are likely nerfing tank damage slightly across the board, while giving us more combined HP and DPS simultaneously to compensate.