Monk's Heavensward abilities

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Originally Posted by Adire

Yeah, we'll just have to disagree. I find 30-40 dps to be pretty small. And in my attempt, I was more along the lines of getting 10-20 dps increases if the numbers were coming in correctly.

I don't believe there's a flaw in the testing method I used. I did my rotation on a dummy 10 times, 5 with FoF, 5 without it. Each time the same thing occurred, no mistakes were made in my rotation on 4 of the attempts, had a minor disconnect on one however but the other times, the same thing occurred. DPS increase was small.

So yeah, if 5% isn't making a big difference, 3% certainly didn't.

It wasn't a perception issue for sure. If I got 40-80 dps from it, I'd consider that more adequate. If anything, the numbers coming were inaccurate.

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I did a few attempts myself, but it was far too small a sample size to be worth anything; as is 10. 10 attempts could easily be swayed by RnG; with the only way to control for it being many, many attempts. Also 6 failed attempts is more than half of your sample contaminated by error human error/connection issues. Coupled with small size it's not overly compelling. Unless your DPS is realllllllly goddamn low (sub 800ish) then it would enter the realm of possibility.

Your evidence isn't sufficient to support your claim, which I surmise as being; a multiplicative 5% damage increase giving you a...1-2% damage increase? Unless all this time % damage increases have been additive? Fairly certain they're not though.

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Originally Posted by Adire

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Yeah but monks didn't end up getting max potential out of their abilities bc they were more of situational skills while other classes got all these dmg boosting skills that they integrated to their rotation, 2 things u didn't address that puts holes in ur argument.
1. MNK has received changes since the beginning of HW, making comparisons to the start of expansion pointless bc they're at a different place now
2.The amount of players at the start of HW & the different SKILL CAPS. Some didn't know how to use MNK new tools to get max use vs people who did and parsed on par with DRGs.I went thru HW with a MNK who knew how to play, did both EX fights and all A normal and he did 100-300 dps more than any other dps, which just goes again to show the varied skill cap if we never encountered a DRG doing on par with him.
If you think monks were ever on par or below ninja in terms of personal damage you're just looking at lower skill capped players.

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Originally Posted by trailmix9999

It doesnt really matter what YOU think, the proof is on fflogs as i've provided above. So regardless if YOU think 3% or 5% is a buff or not, it obviously did something to make MNK go from 2nd or 3rd ST dps to top ST dps.

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It does matter actually. Please do not attempt to dehumanize others by considering their thoughts valueless. There are more factors going into those logs than just the 3% monk buff. While the logs do seem to support your claim, it's still quite silly to suggest that 3% really made that much of a difference. It's far more likely that dragoons are not reaching the damage ceiling on such fights that they reached on dummy parses.

I've given my evidence that FoF doesn't make much of a difference, 3% would make even less of one obviously. At launch, on dummy parses at least, top dragoons were well ahead of monks at launch. I find it VERY hard to believe that a tiny 3% buff caught monks up.

And yes, dummy parsing isn't like fight parsing. However, to get an accurate reading of a job's actual damage ceiling, dummy parsing is the best method.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

I did a few attempts myself, but it was far too small a sample size to be worth anything; as is 10. 10 attempts could easily be swayed by RnG; with the only way to control for it being many, many attempts. Also 6 failed attempts is more than half of your sample contaminated by error human error/connection issues. Coupled with small size it's not overly compelling. Unless your DPS is realllllllly goddamn low (sub 800ish) then it would enter the realm of possibility.

Your evidence isn't sufficient to support your claim, which I surmise as being; a multiplicative 5% damage increase giving you a...1-2% damage increase? Unless all this time % damage increases have been additive? Fairly certain they're not though.

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I agree, 10 attempts isn't a big sample size. I do not have time to test it all day though. My evidence from my tests is the best we have at the moment, anyone else, feel free to come along with a larger sample size and help figure out if RNG really does fail to cause a major difference. In my tests, it did not make a notable difference. I am simply noting a strong trend in my testing of it.

I also did not fail 6 attempts. I failed on one attempt due to a temporary disconnect. Where did you get 6 attempts....?

Also, my dps was between 1100-1200ish on each attempt minus the disconnected one, not particularly low or high given my gear, not using pots, etc.

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Originally Posted by jmdude

Yeah but monks didn't end up getting max potential out of their abilities bc they were more of situational skills while other classes got all these dmg boosting skills that they integrated to their rotation, 2 things u didn't address that puts holes in ur argument.
1. MNK has received changes since the beginning of HW, making comparisons to the start of expansion pointless bc they're at a different place now
2.The amount of players at the start of HW & the different SKILL CAPS. Some didn't know how to use MNK new tools to get max use vs people who did and parsed on par with DRGs.I went thru HW with a MNK who knew how to play, did both EX fights and all A normal and he did 100-300 dps more than any other dps, which just goes again to show the varied skill cap if we never encountered a DRG doing on par with him.
If you think monks were ever on par or below ninja in terms of personal damage you're just looking at lower skill capped players.

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Situational skills eh? You do realize that none of monk's HW skills have functionally changed since launch right? They're as situational now as they were then. The only changes monk has received have been things I posted in a previous post, things that came with 3.07. There was no true change to how any of the skills function or how much DPS they add.

Bringing up personal skill cap is irrelevant. At launch, the top DRGs were parsing more than the top MNKs with similar gear, that's just a fact. The damage ceiling was higher for DRGs. Ninja was iffier and the dps difference was pretty tiny, but top ninjas were still more often than not parsing higher than top monks. Considering MNK's new skills were GL management QoL besides Chakra and Elixir Field, there wasn't anything groundbreakingly new for monks to have to figure out how to learn to use like you seem to be suggesting.

Form shift is essentially "I'm in X form, I need to be in Y form, there's nothing to attack so hit this button instead".

TK is essentially "I'm unavoidably going to lose GL, using this is better than dropping GL with no damage, so use this button."

Neither should have come as a change to playstyle for monk or as a shock to anyone familiar with the job.

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Originally Posted by Adire

but top ninjas were still more often than not parsing higher than top monks.

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You keep saying this, but it didn't actually happen.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

You keep saying this, but it didn't actually happen.

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I guess my memory is completely screwed then? I can find you some reddit threads and such from launch/pre-buffs showing ninjas parsing similar to monks if you don't believe me. On dummies of course.

Small example:

Monk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arZ5mka4oik (edit: posted the same link for both, derp)

Ninja: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe60SVllWOs

Same ilvl, same exact DPS, around the same length of parsing. i'll gladly fetch more if this fails to please you.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I guess my memory is completely screwed then? I can find you some reddit threads and such from launch/pre-buffs showing ninjas parsing similar to monks if you don't believe me. On dummies of course.

Small example:

Monk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arZ5mka4oik (edit: posted the same link for both, derp)

Ninja: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe60SVllWOs

Same ilvl, same exact DPS, around the same length of parsing. i'll gladly fetch more if this fails to please you.

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TP song lul, but for real why are we talking about launch dps?

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Originally Posted by trailmix9999

TP song lul, but for real why are we talking about launch dps?

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Because since then the only buff monk has gotten directly to its damage is the 3% buff, and I am not convinced it has offset launch numbers for damage ceilings as much as people here are claiming.

And not sure what the big deal about TP song is :P it's giving you a more accurate picture of damage potential.

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Originally Posted by Adire

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It probably isn't the best idea to use a video of a monk who lets demolish fall off for 2-3 gcds and isn't using fracture as an example of top tier monk dps.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

It probably isn't the best idea to use a video of a monk who lets demolish fall off for 2-3 gcds and isn't using fracture as an example of top tier monk dps.

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Lol....O.o. He was keeping Demolish up....just not clipping it over letting it fall off for a second....nice try though....and not every top monk uses fracture, especially on dummies with no TP regen going on.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Lol....O.o. He was keeping Demolish up....just not clipping it over letting it fall off for a second....nice try though....and not every top monk uses fracture, especially on dummies with no TP regen going on.

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*sigh* he loses a tick of demolish at 0:55, refreshes demolish at 5 seconds at 1:54, and has no demolish for 3 gcds between 2:36-2:42.

As for not all top tier monks using fracture, all you have to do is look at the logs for Faust http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...7Cabilities.33 to see that all but 1 of the monks in the top 10 use at least 2 fractures(with the one outlier getting 2 arrows from their astro) and the nearly half of the top 500 use it.

As for using fracture on a dummy, you can easily use it comfortably on a dummy with no tp regen and still last longer than 3 minutes if you're using it correctly.