The Rejoining (Spoilers for EVERYTHING up to 2.55, welcome to Lore)

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Some person you've never met face-to-face was wrong. Setting them straight is important, dammit! XD

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Of course it was! Still is! Eugenics and Nazis were brought up... man it was a mess.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

See, what was a little different with Symphonia was the point that because the cycle the world is in was, in fact, created by man to begin with, it was not wrong for man to rewrite the universe again to change it. Granted, Symphonia (being, in part, a critique of Final Fantasy X) was about an 11 on the idealistic scale, and ended by deciding a (pretty far-off) goal to be worked for but not outlining how to get there. Then the sequel went pretty dark places by asking "what did you think was going to happen when you rejoined the worlds, really? Instant world peace?"

We seem to be moving season-by-season through various plotlines, so even if we do complete/thwart the Rejoining at some point, what comes after could still have its own share of problems to deal with

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I've played both Symphonia games as well, and it's again not dissimilar. The difference is in the Dark Souls-verse the very existence of Light and Dark are an inherent part of Man's very existence, not a result of Man's actions. The cycle of Light and Dark is literally unbreakable, as the soul and the cycle are one and the same.

I think it's similar in XIV. Hydaelyn could very well be the collective consciousness of the Spoken races, the source of Spoken souls and what they return to upon death.

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Originally Posted by Hydaelyn

I am Hydaelyn, all made one.

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But some fragment of Dark, some piece of Zodiark, separates us from her and grants us independent existence.

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

The Light! It binds them! They are too many!

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Light binds; Dark separates. Without both we cannot exist. It doesn't have the idealistic tone the story seems to have (except the 2.5.X story content), though...

That would change my hypothesis from Man being responsible for Hydaelyn's creation to vice versa, but I didn't discount that possibility as well. We are "Children of the Land," after all.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

That would change my hypothesis from Man being responsible for Hydaelyn's creation to vice versa, but I didn't discount that possibility as well. We are "Children of the Land," after all.

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Granted I'm taking a huge chunk of this next theory from my own (lamentably unpublished) work, but a part of me wonders if it was the Twelve who created Hydaelyn, and thus man, to be some sort of "improvement" over the existence they had known. They had acquired the power to alter reality (from Zodiark?), and so created some new world based on what they thought would be "better" than the world they lived in. Except something went wrong, somewhere, and the Ascians have spent thousands of years trying to set "right" this change that was made for the sake of their world, sewing chaos and destruction in a world that was meant to be paradise.

Which would leave us as little more than the gods' playthings. A "mistake" in the cosmic sense that should never have been made, but now that we do we have no less a right to exist than the original "something" we were taken from. This... doesn't hold up with the themes on the table, yet, because self-determination must yield before the wills of unseen higher powers for the greater good, but I suspect more time with Uncle Middy might start shifting our ideology a bit.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Granted I'm taking a huge chunk of this next theory from my own (lamentably unpublished) work, but a part of me wonders if it was the Twelve who created Hydaelyn, and thus man, to be some sort of "improvement" over the existence they had known. They had acquired the power to alter reality (from Zodiark?), and so created some new world based on what they thought would be "better" than the world they lived in. Except something went wrong, somewhere, and the Ascians have spent thousands of years trying to set "right" this change that was made for the sake of their world, sewing chaos and destruction in a world that was meant to be paradise.

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But that's how the myth of Eorzea starts, isn't it? While we can assume that people evolved and the planet was created naturally, we are still in a fantasy world where the myth and predominant religion state that we are products of the gods' creation.

I personally think we're headed for an FF5 reconnect two worlds and merge their world maps... which gives Yoshi another way to hit the big old reset button on existing zones.

Other thoughts that I haven't really developed or thought through to their logical endpoints;

Ascians can move around a lot like we do - teleportation. We move from somewhere to an "anchor of light" (my term) and maybe the Ascians are doing the same in their dark world between "dark aetheryte crystals", but because they're this weird dimension-crossing class, they're appearing in both worlds. What might Eorzea look like if the Rejoining goes ahead?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Granted I'm taking a huge chunk of this next theory from my own (lamentably unpublished) work, but a part of me wonders if it was the Twelve who created Hydaelyn, and thus man, to be some sort of "improvement" over the existence they had known. They had acquired the power to alter reality (from Zodiark?), and so created some new world based on what they thought would be "better" than the world they lived in. Except something went wrong, somewhere, and the Ascians have spent thousands of years trying to set "right" this change that was made for the sake of their world, sewing chaos and destruction in a world that was meant to be paradise.

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Distinct possibility... we don't know Hydaelyn's origins, but according to myth the Gods lived alongside the Spoken races before they began to war among themselves. The Gods then left, inducing the first Calamity and starting the Astral / Umbral Era cycle.

However, if the Twelve were responsible for creating Hydaelyn, and something went wrong with her creation... might the Ascians themselves be the Twelve? I believe there was some old legend about a Roegadyn Thaumaturge, who was an Archon (of Rahlgr), eventually turning his back on the world and sort of becoming an Ascian... might that not be true of the entire pantheon?

The Ascians being the figures the Twelve are based on would explain a few things, like their godlike power, how there's twelve of them (plus Elidibus), how normal people can't even perceive them, etc.

I don't know about any parallel or alternate worlds, but...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Which would leave us as little more than the gods' playthings. A "mistake" in the cosmic sense that should never have been made, but now that we do we have no less a right to exist than the original "something" we were taken from. This... doesn't hold up with the themes on the table, yet, because self-determination must yield before the wills of unseen higher powers for the greater good, but I suspect more time with Uncle Middy might start shifting our ideology a bit.

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I dunno about whether or not our existence is a mistake. On the contrary, far as I can figure I believe Hydaelyn deliberately created us to be containers for Zodiark's essence. Consider a choice of the Ascians' words in regards to Calamities: "Rejoining." They're putting something back together. That something could be Zodiark. By slaughtering people en masse, they're liberating more and more of Zodiark's essence from Spoken souls. Dark is an inherent component of our existence, our very being, but by dying our souls return to Hydaelyn (to continue the cycle of souls) but the Dark is returned to Zodiark. Hydaelyn is strongest when there are many people to bind together, while Zodiark's power is derived from the opposite. By killing off enough of the world's population though the Primals, aether starvation, puppeteered Calamities, and direct actions, Zodiark will regain his full power and the scales of the world will tip from Light to Dark.

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

By my will, [Ishgard] shall reap salvation unlike any the world has known.

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Insanity aside, why would they term it salvation if all they're doing is killing people?

We are just playthings of the gods, thus far. Part of Heavensward (or at least Middy's test) is to see if we're truly noble or we're just doing what we are because we're on Hydaelyn's leash, after all.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

A part of me wonders if it was the Twelve who created Hydaelyn, and thus man, to be some sort of "improvement" over the existence they had known. They had acquired the power to alter reality (from Zodiark?), and so created some new world based on what they thought would be "better" than the world they lived in. Except something went wrong, somewhere, and the Ascians have spent thousands of years trying to set "right" this change that was made for the sake of their world, sewing chaos and destruction in a world that was meant to be paradise.

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This theory reminds me of the setting of Garth Nix's Abhorsen novels. In them, it's explained that reality used to be chaotic magical forces existing in anarchy, until they were bound by laws that created the 'orderly' world. There are still magical beings that resent / fight against that 'order' as being oppressive to their natural 'free' state. Perhaps something similar could've happened with Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

Well, this is all fasinating, but I was wondering about the Echo, which may not be related. What is its source? It seems clear that the Ascians have it as well, as does Iceheart and the Sahagin Priest (though perhaps the Ascians gave it to them both?). All of which seem to point to it not coming from either Hyd or Zodiarc, and Midgardsomr doesn't remove it, or even seem to be concerned with it. So, who or what is it from? And if both Hyd and Zodiarc can grant it, then doesn't that mean they have more in common then we might think?

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I think iceheart was given the echo from the mother Crystal. She mentions the hear, feel, think that Hydelan always says

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Originally Posted by melflomil

I think iceheart was given the echo from the mother Crystal. She mentions the hear, feel, think that Hydelan always says

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Debatable. There seem to be two versions of the Echo: the Ascians' version that grants them effective immortality (excepting the White Auracite / Blade of Light combo) and our version, which just lets us view others' memories and grants us immunity to Tempering. It's all but verified the Ascians' version makes them immune to Tempering as well; Ifrit mentions talking to them, and if it's the same "gift" but from Zodiark they're definitely immune. The "Hear, Feel, Think" could be something from Zodiark instead, since if he's Hydaelyn's opposite and equal it's not unthinkable there are similarities between the two.

While Ysayle never shows the immortality the Ascians did (just the Tempering immunity) and seems to mention Hydaelyn... it's not unthinkable she got the Echo from Zodiark instead. I don't think it's likely, with Zodiark supposedly being "dead" and all, but it's a distinct possibility. The reason I have a hard time believing Ysayle got the Echo from Hydaelyn is because, well... she summons Shiva, and Primals are supposedly "toxic" to Hydaelyn, as it were, since their summoning and sustenance eats up and screws with the aether flow. (Then again, Bahamut was out there in space for God knows how long.) I can't fathom why Hydaelyn would give the Echo to someone so easily manipulated by the Ascians into harming her.

Either way, it's also possible the Echo we and the Ascians have is the very same thing, which has some... dark implications. Since it's an overall idealistic story I doubt my doubts are founded, but still.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Debatable.

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I think Iceheart has been a pawn (more on that in a moment), but I do think she was woken by Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Ysayle

We who walk before may lead those who walk after. Seek the Keeper of the Lake. See with eyes unclouded. Do...do not squander Mother's gift.

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That said, in Patch 2.3, Lahabrea and Nabriales blatantly talk about how Eorzea is "fertile ground for divine seeds" and that if they "nurture the gifted" and support their zealotry, they will always give rise to a new god. 2.4 arrives and Ysayle (gifted) leads the heretics (zealots) in the summoning of Shiva (new primal) and Nabriales is standing by watching the whole thing like, "Lahabrea will be pleased," (because Lahabrea is obsessed with merging mortals and deiforms), even though it frustrates him that Lahabrea's success will prevent his ascension to Zodiark's right hand (which spurns him to act as he does in Patch 2.5).

So Ysayle totally seems to have taken the Ascian bait, but she still seems to be Hydaelyn's, imho.

And she seems correct that Ishgard's war is pointless and waged under false pretense (though who's to say the dragons are completely innocent).

I think her echo comes from crystamom. Iceheart seems too 'good' (using that word loosly) to have Zodiark's echo, and she seems to hold Hyda in high regard. She flat out tells us, "don't squander mother's gift."
I have the feeling that either Hyda is telling Iceheart what to do, or she's being controlled by Nidhogg.