Nidhogg and the Monetarists

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Originally Posted by myahele

Can anyone confirm if the Nanamo's maid had a shadow in all of her appearances?

In 1.0, a suspected Ascien named Travanchet never had a shadow in his appearances

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Good question!

... but the lighting is too dim to really make out much of a shadow on anyone. Furthermore, the camera rarely gets into a position that would let you see whether or not the Handmaiden is casting a shadow.

Either way, Lahabrea-possessed Thancred still clearly casts a shadow (Escape from Castrum Centri, Cutscene 7), so I don't think they'll use such an obvious tell anymore.

As an aside, Travanchet was pretty much confirmed to be an Ascian, but was just a host like Thancred; it was confirmed by Yoshi-P that whichever Ascian was possessing Travanchet simply moved to a more convenient host post-Calamity.

I do believe the Ascians are probably manipulating everything, but without evidence, the speculation is pointless. There's clearly more going on, and we need more dragon lore to truly tie their goals together.

Just thinking the Ascians are behind stuff, because that's what they do, is meaningless.
In most cases too, we still need to face the threat they create because it poses a threat to the world, while they're safe at the sidelines.

The time we did get a reprieve from their machinations, you know what the Scions did?
They figured out how to kill them.
This is something even they didn't know was possible. For all their cleverness, they clearly didn't know their own immortality enough to see its weakness.
And they clearly didn't expect us to kill "that which should be eternal".
That's a clear case where the Scions weren't playing their game, and it's a big one.

In the rest of the cases, we had to play along because if we don't then the world is still threatened.

Part of the hero-villain relationship, particularly in FF and Square games embodies Light vs Darkness in more ways than one.
The villains lurk and plot, while the heroes simply shine through.
In most of the games, the WoL wins because the beacon of hope they embody cannot be extinguished.
The villains can entangle them so that their light dims or their actions work in the villains' favor, but in the end the WoL wins because they are always underestimated.
The WoL doesn't need to be clever usually, he just needs shine brighter than the shadows that try to contain him/her.

That's what the WoL is good at. They usually can't really outsmart the villains, because that's not really playing to their strengths.
You can't outplot the plotters. Alphinaud tried to do that and it failed gloriously.
They made it a point there that the good guys shouldn't try to outplot the plotters, or treat people like pawns.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

The WoL doesn't need to be clever usually, he just needs shine brighter than the shadows that try to contain him/her. That's what the WoL is good at. They usually can't really outsmart the villains, because that's not really playing to their strengths.

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As long as we can /hildy, we know there's a source of light that's impossible to extinguish ready to keep shining.
Seriously, I'd love to see Ascians try to manipulate that guy...

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Originally Posted by KikoriL

As long as we can /hildy, we know there's a source of light that's impossible to extinguish ready to keep shining.
Seriously, I'd love to see Ascians try to manipulate that guy...

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It would either be incredibly easy or nearly impossible, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Just thinking the Ascians are behind stuff, because that's what they do, is meaningless.
In most cases too, we still need to face the threat they create because it poses a threat to the world, while they're safe at the sidelines.

The time we did get a reprieve from their machinations, you know what the Scions did?
They figured out how to kill them.
This is something even they didn't know was possible. For all their cleverness, they clearly didn't know their own immortality enough to see its weakness.
And they clearly didn't expect us to kill "that which should be eternal".
That's a clear case where the Scions weren't playing their game, and it's a big one.

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Actually that's an odd example. Yes we got a one up on them but it was ONLY because Nebralus went off script. If he'd stayed on script instead of going rouge we wouldn't have even known the significance of Tupsimati nor that our plan would actually work or under what conditions it would. Lahabrea and the others are following the script so they are safely laying out the trail in front of us. Lahabrea even considered Nabralise's death to be insignificant BECAUSE it was caused by going off script. Though they did seem genuinely confused on how we managed to permanently kill him.
So even if they're pulling strings I don't think they just stalk us every where to keep tabs on us unless it's an important step like with the Primals. And they seem to WANT us to win against the primals since they always seem pleased when one falls to our blade.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Actually that's an odd example. Yes we got a one up on them but it was ONLY because Nebralus went off script. If he'd stayed on script instead of going rouge we wouldn't have even known the significance of Tupsimati nor that our plan would actually work or under what conditions it would. Lahabrea and the others are following the script so they are safely laying out the trail in front of us. Lahabrea even considered Nabralise's death to be insignificant BECAUSE it was caused by going off script. Though they did seem genuinely confused on how we managed to permanently kill him.
So even if they're pulling strings I don't think they just stalk us every where to keep tabs on us unless it's an important step like with the Primals. And they seem to WANT us to win against the primals since they always seem pleased when one falls to our blade.

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My point was entirely about the fact that the Scions showed they're not as immortal as they think they are.
They might've played that hand too early, but it was understandable given the circumstances.

Nebralise wasn't a loss to the Ascians, since he went rogue.
I get that and never really talking about him in the first place other than the fact that he's the first Ascian we've killed.
They don't expose themselves that much, so it'll still be hard to use and now they'll be extra careful.

That said, Lahabrea exposed himself to us before and if that happens again he won't be able to come back from it.
It's not like he's known for being on-script either.

On the second point, yes it's clear they want us to kill the Primals.
Hence why I said we have to deal with the threats even though it plays into their hands because we can't exactly let the Primals ravage Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by KikoriL

As long as we can /hildy, we know there's a source of light that's impossible to extinguish ready to keep shining.
Seriously, I'd love to see Ascians try to manipulate that guy...

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I don't know why anyone fears for the future when we have Hildebrand to save us.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

To be fair, our characters have seen no indication that the Ascians are behind the Dragonsong war.

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If we really want to push back hard. During your level 15ish or so quest when you meet your Leader of your starter city state for the for the very first time. A cutscene plays during that banquet in which you witness the battle of Carteneu. Lahabrea explicitly states that he is seeing Bahamut Summoned AGAIN (This cutscene is viewable at the inn Via the unending journey log) . Since Bahamut has been sealed in Dalamud since the 3rd Astral Era, it means he witnessed him during this time. Damn Lahabrea is old as hell, more importantly the Ascians were active even in the 3rd Astral Era. At that time The only place not conquered by Emperor Xande was Meracydia, the Country of Dragons.

Enter the 6th Astral Era and the migration of The Followers of Halone to Coerthas.

In Keeper of the Lake Midgardsomr says his people Do NOT forgive, and they Do NOT forget. Now while this could easily reference the 6th astral era. We can easily Cycle this all the way back to the 3rd Astral Era in which Man Warred with Dragon. Allagans vrs Meracydians.

Unforgiving to Man for the sins of the Allag Empire, and those of Halone going OH SHIT THAT'S A BIG DRAGON! The war of the 3rd Astral Era resumes in Coerthas.

So To roll down the line. Assuming our Characters had half a brain... which they don't


Echo Flash back with Lahabrea's words of seeing Bahamut summoned before the battle of Carteneau. Meaning he saw him before he was sealed in Dalamud.
The whole Crystal tower series. Allagans, Dragons, Dalamud, and Bahamut.
Our characters do not See the Cutscene at the end of the Shiva HM fight. (But DAMN Nabrielas cuts image and nice soliloquy.) <--- Hardest evidence of the Dragonsong war, too bad our characters actually miss this!


So even with the first two and then angry dragons everywhere, Knowing the Ascian's penchant for teaching summoning. It can be inferred that the Ascians are driving the Heretics. Unfortunately our characters are Morons that have failed Eorzea in major ways atleast twice.

1.0 Ended in Failure.
2.0 Ended in Failure.

3rd time's a charm, right?

See you in 3.0!!!!

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Originally Posted by Causality

Unforgiving to Man for the sins of the Allag Empire, and those of Halone going OH SHIT THAT'S A BIG DRAGON! The war of the 3rd Astral Era resumes in Coerthas.

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... except Meracydia and Dravania are entirely separate cultures. Meracydia lies somewhere across the southern seas (if it still exists), not within Eorzea; while Midgardsormr's note on the dragons' grudge holding habits are duly noted, he explicitly states in the Japanese dialogue that the Dravanians are punishing Ishgard for their own sins (or the sins of their forebears), not those of Allag. Specifically:

Midgardsormr: "... [My kin's] destination is Ishgard, home of the people who have forgotten fear and have sinned."

[PC objects.]

Midgardsormr: "This is retribution! The people of Ishgard are blind to their sins. Their sins demand battle without end. And yet more, they want to sin again. This is why my kin roars. ... As Ishgard doesn't want to repent, my child and their people will not delay the retribution. The land shall burn, their people shall die, the justice will be done."

Middy's literally translated dialogue, for those curious.

The Heretics / Harriers are almost certainly being manipulated by the Ascians, as Nabriales implies or outright states he's the one who taught Ysale the ritual to go Super Sai- er, to summon Shiva.

I wouldn't entirely rule out an Alaggan link to the current war. The reason Nidhogg attacked the early Ishgardians in the first place could easily have been something their ancestors did. Dragons have really long memories and a longer sense of time. Its not beyond possibility that the Ishgardian's distant ancestors at the time of the Allag somehow aided the Allag in their war against the dragons. It seems likely that the Allag did fight the Dravanian dragons at some point since they conquered most of the world we know of.

Considering most the oldest dragons have lived through multiple Umbral eras I could see them holding a grudge that dated back so far that current civilisations have no idea what they are angry about.

To be honest, most of the time I hear from the dragons side of things I suspect they have some validation in their anger but also serious ego issues that gives a strong sense of self importance. If that is the way of it I thing the Allag would have seriously be a huge source of anger and humiliation for their race.

Then again, maybe its my perception of Iceheart rubbing off on them. If she is going to become our ally I hope she gets pulled down a couple of pegs. In some ways she seems almost as much of a zealot as the Ishgardians.

Just to remind people... Not everything we see in cutscene our character sees too. The whole scene with nabrielas after shiva? We saw that...the WoL did not.

We get a lot more information about what's going on than our character, and we have to remember that. When you consider what the WoL actually knows...things aren't as "stupid" as they seem