1vs1 Duel Battles

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Originally Posted by Nalien

And? Provided 1v1s are open world and reward-less, players can balance matches themselves if they want to take a match seriously.

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1) If they are rewardless, they will mostly serve as e-peen stroking/ bother people.
2) No, players really can't balance most match-ups themselves without handicapping their opponent or themselves. "Make your attacks not interrupt my casting." "No healing yourself with spells because I don't have those." No really, I want to know what "balancing themselves" entails.
3) That's almost like releasing face-roll end-game content and telling the players to find ways to gimp themselves so that it's challenging.
4) Some people will take duels seriously and refuse to gimp themselves for balance. Or better yet, "cheat" (which is subjective).

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Slap 1v1 requests behind a PvP Rank requirement and problem solved... Only people who'd have to put up with such harassment would be people who went for the Glamours alone,

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And then it becomes more cumbersome than I'm willing to bet the devs care to do. There will be of course people who don't want to 1 v 1 for their own personal reasons, not just poor unfortunate souls who liked the PvP sets. There's also a lot of people simply win-trading in WD for the challenge log.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

We have a Blacklist and GMs, why is this even a point? People who want to harass already can, trade blocks for example.

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That still leaves much ambiguity on the GM's part if you foresee it being a form of harassment like a trade-block. "I just wanted to duel him." Harassment for me being more along the lines of personal vendettas or public slandering. True, we already have this, but why add more?

And yes, I'm aware of the Black list, but I'm under the influence that it's there solely as our one RMT deterrent. /sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

1) If they are rewardless, they will mostly serve as e-peen stroking/ bother people.

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Or, you know, using them to practice in a way which doesn't negatively impact team based PvP, or just as something to do with friends while waiting between queues. I'd certainly rather PvP while waiting to PvP. Actually I'd be more willing to wait on that queue if I could PvP during it. If that same is true for others, that would have a positive impact on queue times.

Also, how would they bother people if there was a restriction on who you can send requests to? Seriously...

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Originally Posted by Cidel

2) No, players really can't balance most match-ups themselves without handicapping their opponent or themselves. "Make your attacks not interrupt my casting." "No healing yourself with spells because I don't have those." No really, I want to know what "balancing themselves" entails.

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Players can balance matches themselves by not going into a obviously one sided Job match-up... How is that hard to understand? If you want a serious match, you're not going to go as something which is at a severe disadvantage to your opponent, not unless you're extremely confident. If you want a serious match you can very easily organize same verses same to see who is the better whatever.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

3) That's almost like releasing face-roll end-game content and telling the players to find ways to gimp themselves so that it's challenging.

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I don't even know what your point is here.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

4) Some people will take duels seriously and refuse to gimp themselves for balance. Or better yet, "cheat" (which is subjective).

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If someone is going to take duels so serious that they'd demand their opponent is at a disadvantage to them based on Job, well... They're a shithead. That isn't taking duels seriously, that's just giving yourself an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

And then it becomes more cumbersome than I'm willing to bet the devs care to do. There will be of course people who don't want to 1 v 1 for their own personal reasons, not just poor unfortunate souls who liked the PvP sets. There's also a lot of people simply win-trading in WD for the challenge log.

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How would it be more cumbersome if they put in less work? No rewards means less work. Why would people win trade duels if there is no rewards? Heck, they could literally just slap Duels behind Friend Requests and I'd be fine with that, more so than Mog Mail anyway. Personally I only really want to 1v1 friends to pass the time anyway. Easy enough to make friends with other PvPers to do the same, could still use it for serious challenges. Would prevent people from harassing with it as well, someone wants to be a shithead, unfriend them.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

That still leaves much ambiguity on the GM's part if you foresee it being a form of harassment like a trade-block. "I just wanted to duel him." Harassment for me being more along the lines of personal vendettas or public slandering. True, we already have this, but why add more?

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Well, above point aside... "I just wanted to duel him" isn't a defense when the person is harassing someone by sending requests ad nauseum and refusing to accept no for an answer. That is what I assume we all mean by "duel harasment", anyway. Something similar to what we get with Triple Triad where you can occasionally get the odd request isn't really harassment IMO. Either someone is aggressively seeking a match or they're not, it's pretty clear cut when someone is harassing.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Or, you know, using them to practice in a way which doesn't negatively impact team based PvP, or just as something to do with friends while waiting between queues.

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You can cherry-pick the good examples just as easily as I can find the negative. Either way, it's not a super-compelling argument.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Also, how would they bother people if there was a restriction on who you can send requests to? Seriously...

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Seriously, I already covered that. Read again.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Players can balance matches themselves by not going into a obviously one sided Job match-up... How is that hard to understand? If you want a serious match, you're not going to go as something which is at a severe disadvantage to your opponent, not unless you're extremely confident. If you want a serious match you can very easily organize same verses same to see who is the better whatever.

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Some people are going to die-hard one job and refuse to swap their job to give their opponent a handicap, and vice versa. You haven't played any competitive Fighting Games with people you don't know, have you? Oh, and same vs same really just works out if both players have the same job levelled.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I don't even know what your point is here.

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That's fine, it shows me that you're not seeing the flaw in your own idea.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If someone is going to take duels so serious that they'd demand their opponent is at a disadvantage to them based on Job, well... They're a shithead. That isn't taking duels seriously, that's just giving yourself an advantage.

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You're either missing the point here or trying to put words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Care to actually respond to the entirety of both my posts you quoted, rather than picking one sentence out and seemingly acting like the rest of the points I made aren't there? I've covered all this before...

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Right back at you pal, your responses are incredibly idealistic and I can see you trying to dismiss my issues with simplistic answers with even more holes.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

How would it be more cumbersome if they put in less work? No rewards means less work.

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More cumbersome meaning the devs probably won't even put in the effort to do it if it gave no (worthwhile) rewards/ add systems just so people couldn't duel certain people. Come on, they haven't even given the community a lot of what we're asking for due to system limitations. I believe we already have a handful of things without worthwhile rewards in-game right now. And you know they probably won't add duels without some kind of ratio/achievement.

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Why would people win trade duels if there is no rewards?

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Now I know you're either not reading carefully or really misconstruing my points. I brought up WD win trades because it's not difficult for people not interested in PvP ranks to be over a certain rank (for your proposed rank restriction) simply getting free marks/points from the challenge log.

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Heck, they could literally just slap Duels behind Friend Requests and I'd be fine with that

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Literally the only reasonable thing I've gotten from you so far, since-

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I only really want to 1v1 friends to pass the time anyway.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Some people are going to die-hard one job and refuse to swap their job to give their opponent a handicap, and vice versa. You haven't played any competitive Fighting Games with people you don't know, have you? Oh, and same vs same really just works out if both players have the same job levelled.

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And? What does that matter? If someone is that dedicated to a Job and they want a serious duel, they're still not going to opt to fight in an unbalanced match. If you want a serious match-up you're not going to be looking for one-sided matches. You're going to be looking for matches that are balanced. This isn't about giving their opponent a handicap, it's about having a balanced fight. Something like Black Mage verses Dragoon is not balanced. Anyone interested in a serious match is not going to be interested in that match-up to begin with. Others, like me, who want to practice might, but anyone looking for a serious challenge isn't. Not unless they're confident that they can take the Job at the disadvantage and win with it, in which case they're the one who has to deal with the imbalance, not the person they're challenging.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Right back at you pal, your responses are incredibly idealistic and I can see you trying to dismiss my issues with simplistic answers with even more holes.

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I actually edited that out when you edited in a real response. Idealistic? Sure. You're issues? I don't see them. Harassment is a non-issue that is easily resolved, and never really an argument against implementing something (how are those "Don't add Vote Kick/Abandon because of harassment!" threads going? Oh right, they added that...). Balance is something players can take into their own hands, your idea that someone will be after a serious challenge and only ever want to be on one Job, going out of their way to challenge absolutely anybody, regardless of their opponents Job and how ridiculously easy that might make the match, is absurd to me. Anyone interested in a serious match isn't going to be interested in a one-sided match, because that isn't a serious match...

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Originally Posted by Cidel

More cumbersome meaning the devs probably won't even put in the effort to do it if it gave no (worthwhile) rewards/ add systems just so people couldn't duel certain people. Come on, they haven't even given the community a lot of what we're asking for due to system limitations. I believe we already have a handful of things without worthwhile rewards in-game right now. And you know they probably won't add duels without some kind of ratio/achievement.

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Maybe if a significant amount of work would have to go into 1v1s. Request interface? In place with Triple Triad. PvP Actions in select instances? Already in place with PvP in general/Wolves' Den Pier. Locking it behind Friendlist? Mog Mail already does that.

This would require next to no work to be implemented. What does it add? Instant gratification PvP, something this game desperately needs as far as PvP goes, given we currently have to wait an excess of 30 minutes to get into Frontlines.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

You can cherry-pick the good examples just as easily as I can find the negative. Either way, it's not a super-compelling argument.

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More like you can cherry-pick the negative examples as easily as I can the positive. We've just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Honestly even though both of you are getting slightly mad at each other in the argument, that was a pretty constructive discussion

Had a wall of text written out, but honestly, it's not worth it. I could keep going but-

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Why do topics about Duels always fall into debates about balance... Who cares about balance with Duels?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Personally I only really want to 1v1 friends to pass the time anyway.

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-mentality makes it hard to even find a common argument, amongst other things (especially balance). You can have it if it's "friends list only."

Bottom line is, duels implemented in a "any time, any where" basis will likely just breed more drama, spiteful call-outs (hey, sounds like every popular online fighting game I've played!) I mean, the "Fresh Meat" thing was probably their attempt to dissuade this.

We will agree to disagree.

At this point, I don't care. If people want to throw job balancing out the window and it's main purpose would be for face-rolling less-blessed jobs and calling out that guy who outrolled you only harmless "fun", then keep bugging the devs. I won't be a part of it.



"I'm out"
http://37.media.tumblr.com/e9eccb772...01r8o1_500.gif

many are complaining baout harrassment or longer qeue as consequences of 1 vs 1. here is my suggestion and please game develepor take time to read this and reconsider.

1. if harrassment is the issue, then create a zone that is optional for players to challenge other players. try to make a zone requirement of specific level or ilevel so that only those of matched attributes can fight and have a competitive play. if you dont want to be harrassed or play any duel just stay out of the area.

2. longer qeue? how about a prerequisite to entering the zone is any pvp qeue. so while waiting, it buys a some time. again no reward for 1 vs1. just simply a competitive duel.
*if you can get the picture of this suggestions, you can make a story out of this with concept of sparring or practice before the real deal which is the frontline or wolves den. it is simply q quick frndly sparring.

What about deaths in 1v1 PvP?
If 1v1 is supposed to be non-instanced (like a leve quest), then when a player dies would they not have to be resurrected or forced to return to Home aetheryte?

If 1v1 is supposed to be instanced as to avoid this, then I doubt 1v1 can be used to "pass the time in between queues" because you can't be in an instance while queuing for something else. Heck, even having your chocobo out in the open world prevents you from queuing, much less being in a 1v1 instance.


Not to mention if 1v1 was time-based (as someone mentioned it could be set up as most kills after 10 minutes wins), then this doesn't help with queuing either.
As 5 minutes into the Duel, one of the players gets their queue and has to force quit out.

Also if there are no rewards for 1v1 duels, then I can't see this system being used much. The argument utilized in this thread is that players can casually duel while waiting for real pvp matches (frontlines, Wolves Den). However, there are an incredible amount of other things that can be done while queuing that actually give rewards.
- Mining resources
- Crafting items to sell on the market board
- Grinding monsters for item drops with friends
- Beast tribe crafting/gathering quests
- Grand Company provisions
- Farming MGP in the gold saucer
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So if there are plenty of side stuff than have rewards attached, how often will this 1v1 feature with no rewards be utilized?

Not to mention when you queue for PvP, it is across the data center for multiple servers. When you try to 1v1 PvP, you can only do this with those on your own. So even less people who are actively wanting to 1v1 that has no rewards attached.

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Originally Posted by Voldemort

What about deaths in 1v1 PvP?
If 1v1 is supposed to be non-instanced (like a leve quest), then when a player dies would they not have to be resurrected or forced to return to Home aetheryte?

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Die at the end of Frontlines/Wolves' Den and leave while you're still dead without hitting return. When you get back to wherever you were when you entered the instance, you'll automatically be raised. I see no real reason Duels can't work the same way.

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Originally Posted by Voldemort

Not to mention if 1v1 was time-based (as someone mentioned it could be set up as most kills after 10 minutes wins), then this doesn't help with queuing either.
As 5 minutes into the Duel, one of the players gets their queue and has to force quit out.

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That only really negatively impacts the Duel. For queues it would either have no impact, or a positive one. I like to think that if PvPers could PvP while waiting for Frontlines, they'd be more forgiving of the queue timer, meaning more people might actually tolerate it, resulting in more people queuing. Grand Company restrictions aside, PvP in this game suffers quite a lot from a negative feedback loop; Less people start queuing, queues get longer as a result, people see longer queue timers and stop queuing, etc.. I like to think the ability to actually PvP while waiting would help alleviate that somewhat. Wouldn't be an amazing fix to queue timers, but it's something to consider.

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Originally Posted by Voldemort

Also if there are no rewards for 1v1 duels, then I can't see this system being used much. The argument utilized in this thread is that players can casually duel while waiting for real pvp matches (frontlines, Wolves Den). However, there are an incredible amount of other things that can be done while queuing that actually give rewards.

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And none of those things are PvP. Guess what I'm interested in doing when I queue for PvP? That's right, PvP. Going off and mining does not scratch that itch, however 1v1s would. That's the point I'm making here.

I would hope that is true for everyone; When you queue for PvP it is because you want to PvP. Currently you have to wait for the queue before you can PvP. Duels would allow you to PvP during the queue. How is that anything but a good thing?

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Originally Posted by Voldemort

Not to mention when you queue for PvP, it is across the data center for multiple servers. When you try to 1v1 PvP, you can only do this with those on your own. So even less people who are actively wanting to 1v1 that has no rewards attached.

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I'm not sure what it is like on every server, but despite PvP being fairly unpopular for most of the playerbase, there are still PvP communities/LS about. Actually recently I've noticed a fair number of people frequenting Wolves' Den Pier, just standing around waiting for (presumably) Frontlines queues. I don't know them, but I wouldn't mind 1v1ing to pass the time for that queue. Then there are just friends I could 1v1 whenever, I'd at least get plenty of use out of it. Certainly more than almost any of the content you just listed.

How often Duels would be used doesn't even really matter all that much. If it was like Wolves' Den, with rewards and achievements, then it would perhaps be an issue, but without that, Dueling is just a tool. Either for practice, to pass the time, to settle arguments, for "serious" players to seek challenges, whatever. As I've explained earlier, pretty much everything required to implement Duels is already present in the game; Triple Triad has the request interface and select locations. Mog Mail has the Friendlist lock if that is viewed as required. Levequests have the time limit/open world activity that doesn't interrupt queues. Wolves' Den Pier/PvP in general has the on/off function for PvP actions. Very little work would really have to go into implementing Duels, certainly far far less than whatever is going into the new 3.0 Frontlines map which will eventually see little use due to queue timers, and eventually even less when they replace it (I miss you Secure T_T).