nerfed mages and screwed enmity o_o

Alot of people complaining about provoke not working properly, and I don't think people are reading the descriptions of abilties because they HAVE changed. Taunt is more useful than provoke in a 0 enmity situation right now. Not to mention they still have major adjustments to do come 1.19. Remember this is a patch focused on the functionality of auto attack. Not Armory overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Whax

Tell them to try:

Chameleon: Arch (26) - reduce enmity
Out of sight: Arch 30 - passive - reduce enmity
Collusion: Lancer 30 - transfer hate from next attack to person between you and the mob

That a few ones I remember, people say Chameleon is helping a lot.

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This is going back to what people dont want from the armory system, mixing and matching. It has already been complained a lot that 'being able to customize your character is bad'. but now your saying that we should have to rank these classes up, and grab these skills from other classes. All the anti-armory system people will (and should to avoid hypocrisy) disagree with you. I myself have all except Collusion, but I cant say that for every player in the game. This is all to say your one r50 is useless unless you have everything else to at least R40-48, because there are some badass skills a tank would need from classes at or close to that rank. Defender II, Sac/cure III, taunt/provoke/disorient II.

Also, Collusion is for attacks - heals aren't attacks, Chameleon is 5m recast... I agree everyone should get up to r30 archer for out of sight, but has everyone? do people want to bother under the current system?

Collusion is good for transfering hate. us DD's need to have this, if doesn't have is ok thou.. :\ but if have please add for sake of generating hate for tank.

and yes.. maybe they should rebalance or increase enmity created by the Tank using the skill more higher instead.

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Originally Posted by Reika

This is going back to what people dont want from the armory system, mixing and matching. It has already been complained a lot that 'being able to customize your character is bad'. but now your saying that we should have to rank these classes up, and grab these skills from other classes. All the anti-armory system people will (and should to avoid hypocrisy) disagree with you. I myself have all except Collusion, but I cant say that for every player in the game. This is all to say your one r50 is useless unless you have everything else to at least R40-48, because there are some badass skills a tank would need from classes at or close to that rank. Defender II, Sac/cure III, taunt/provoke/disorient II.

Also, Collusion is for attacks - heals aren't attacks, Chameleon is 5m recast... I agree everyone should get up to r30 archer for out of sight, but has everyone? do people want to bother under the current system?

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The discussion was about keeping enmity. While extremely hard, using a party strategy and executing well with vanilla gladiator skills can be done. People want options to help them, armory is currently the only way to do that. Until another update comes along just rank your PGL up a little and learn what pulls hate (they don't always say enmity on the description). I can take or leave the armory system but I'm not going to gimp out when ranking up for the basic skills takes very little time.

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Originally Posted by Raze

The discussion was about keeping enmity. While extremely hard, using a party strategy and executing well with vanilla gladiator skills can be done. People want options to help them, armory is currently the only way to do that. Until another update comes along just rank your PGL up a little and learn what pulls hate (they don't always say enmity on the description). I can take or leave the armory system but I'm not going to gimp out when ranking up for the basic skills takes very little time.

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Im not against taking skills from other classes either, ive been doing it from the beginning. What I'm trying to get at is we shouldn't have to rank everything up to X rank to be an efficient gladiator, and people should have to rank everything to Y rank to have efficient enmity management. I might as well be a freakin R200 Gladiator.

I'm going to go ahead and bring up the infamous WoW. I played a protection paladin forever. Raiding and difficult encounters requiring you to think and move (out of fire) are nothing new to me. There, you have the proper skills and talents to improve the tanking abilities of skills to be an effective tank. And you dont even need 10 of them. Taunt was a skill that placed you on the top of the hate meter if it worked, and you stayed here unless you stooped paying attention again, thus it wasnt a 'do all' skill. I had crusader strike, shield of the righteous, hammer of righteousness (for aoe tanking), and Consecration (for aoe tanking), Avengers Shield, Several Damage reducing debuffs, one attack increasing (thus hate rate increasing) skill, and not once did i ever need to heal myself to live or increase my enmity. There classes that are DD or heals have skills -of their own- to decrease hate if needed. But often they didnt need to use them, as long as the tank was paying attention and using his attacks.

Here, we dont have all the proper attacks that generate enmity on a lower cooldown. They jacked up heavy slash and heavy stab to the point of not even using, Glads 'enmity increasing' attack takes 2000+ tp to use and will prevent all other tp attacks from being used. Barrage I used for a while to see how it worked with being 4-fold on other classes now, but its 'enmity increasing' factor didn't pull more hate than a circle slash II. Storm's Path got made MRD only, so I cant use that on glad for enmity anymore. Sentinel was good for lowering your enmity loss, but that got taken away. Provoke II and Disorient II don't generate as much enmity as one heal does. Don't be fooled by the 50sec recast on taunt II, its 1m40sec WITH Seasoned Veteran on non-pug, and what pug actually tanks now? People don't sense an issue with where this is going? We shouldn't have to hope 1.18x or 1.19 brings increased additions or changes, they should have had a complete change to these skills and enmity ready for this patch. releasing some of them and not all just broke more than it fixed. These changes were way to pre-mature. They didn't introduce enough equipment or traits that helped tank or help reduce enmity that are SPECIFIC to those classes. What are they going to do when jobs come out? Scrap all of this again? whats going to happen when you cant use X skill from Y class when the job locks it out? I also have to repeat that SE wants classes to be for SOLO. why the hell are they adding, or attempting to add, grouping mechanics to them, when Mr Yoshida said classes are going to be for solo while jobs will be for group?!

Well.... that's not my tanking style whatsoever since the algorithm changed so I really can't comment on the GLA skills that don't work since I barely use them.

Think of this too. Yoshida said he wants it to take 3 month of plaing 2hrs a day to get A class to R50. Now if gladiator cant tank properly by being just gladiator, just using gladiator skills, how long do you think it will take for a gladiator to become a proper tank under that system? How long do you think it will take anyone under that system to form a proper party with the right skills to do any group content?

The answer is way too @&#@$ long.

learn to play the game with some skill please and stop complaining

Reika et al,

You're missing the point of the armoury system. Cross-class skill equipping is central to the way it works and how they're going to design the game mechanics. You shouldn't be just as good at GLA50 with no subs as a GLA50 with ranked up subs. That's not how the armoury system is supposed to work. You get in what you put in. If you can't put in the effort to get appropriate subs, just as in FFXI, then you're going to be gimp, especially when it comes to tanking.

A lot of people are also missing a crucial half of the picture on enmity. A healer should not be able to cure bomb and stay green/yellow. That would be very dull design. Damage mitigation is central to holding hate. You need to be using Stoneskin as much as possible. Start off with Sentinel, Featherfoot, Aegis Boon -> Deflection (with Ambidexterity if it's up), and so forth. I can't stress Stoneskin enough, as it's one of the single best spells in the game post-patch. Not only does this greatly reduce the amount of enmity healers are generating, but it saves them a lot of MP.

This change went from "enmity is a joke" to "enmity takes serious effort" and it's only natural that people will have trouble adapting and will complain that it's not fair. This was a necessary change. You will adapt if you get used to it and put in the effort it takes instead of giving up and hoping it gets nerfed for you.

Lastly, to address the armoury topic one more time, what a lot of people are asking for here is simply not what the armoury system is or was ever intended to be. You're asking for exactly what they've said the jobs system will be: limited cross-class ability equipping with more unique job-specific skills designed for party play.

<3 i love you Raikki, what you say is somehow true as well. People need to learn to fully use their brain to use the skills at hand, i have been a Lancer and using stoneskin, it never struck me to think that way. :3