End the Debate? Hardcore and Regular Servers

I see a few problems here. Namely, how would you define hardcore for this type of thing? I have almost all battle classes to 50 yet I haven't done EX Primals or Coil. Where does something like that fit in between people that are doing EX/Coil and the people that haven't even got their first 50 yet?

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Originally Posted by DSX

How much you used was completely dependent on what type of game play you chose for yourself especially when people choose to just go with the flow or experiment with things and also what content you chose to do and what content you chose to ignore but that is beside my point so let me explain please.

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the rabbit hole you mention in XI went as deep as the elemental wheel (This mob is a water type, better use my lightning type pokemIMEAN Spell) and the Magic Burst system which was as complex as...Hit spell at this time, this thing happens. and your picture dumbs down XIV to just the abilities while not getting into the Combo system, Cross Class abilites, the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice system which not only effects MP regen but DPS output,and status effects tied to many spells. Basically the picture removed all of XIV's complexity, and showing XI's "complexity" for the sake of making XI look less shallow than it actually was.

basically if the picture was not biased as it is, it would show both the Aoe and Single target rotation a "Good" BLM in XIV would use. which would look as cluttered as the XI side, but would have more mechanics in it.

I don't know why this is so hard for you guys to imagine. It'd just be a server that's harder, smaller HP pools, steeper death penalties, harder leveling, etc, etc, etc. It's certainly not creative or anything, but the game isn't "mathematically incapable" of having a server like that. Like the Siege Perilous shard in UO. Certainly it might not be popular of financially sound but we don't have to pretend it's some n-hard compsci puzzle to make a server that's harder.

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Originally Posted by DSX

How much you used was completely dependent on what type of game play you chose for yourself especially when people choose to just go with the flow or experiment with things and also what content you chose to do and what content you chose to ignore but that is beside my point so let me explain please.

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The game had been picked apart to the point where everyone knew what was useful and what wasn't. Experiments had been made, numbers crunched, and people found what the most efficient ways of playing were, and you basically stuck to it. FFXIV is the exact same way in that regard. The system in FFXI was not complex, and the bosses did not reflect any deeper understanding of the game, either.

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Originally Posted by DSX

Well the OP advocating "hardcore servers" and what I'm saying is that this game is incapable mathematically of "hardcore" content and so incapable of "hardcore" servers.

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This is just asinine of you to say. Mathematically incapable of hardcore...wow.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

the rabbit hole you mention in XI went as deep as the elemental wheel (This mob is a water type, better use my lightning type pokemIMEAN Spell) and the Magic Burst system which was as complex as...Hit spell at this time, this thing happens. and your picture dumbs down XIV to just the abilities while not getting into the Combo system, Cross Class abilites, the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice system which not only effects MP regen but DPS output. Basically the picture removed all of XIV's complexity, and showing XI's "complexity" for the sake of making XI look less shallow than it actually was.

basically if the picture was not biased as it is, it would show both the Aoe and Single target rotation a "Good" BLM in XIV would use. which would look as cluttered as the XI side, but would have more mechanics in it.

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As I mentioned before the picture was an example and not about what games it featured in it specifically (maybe seeing FFXI hits a chord with you so you ignored that I said its not about what game was on the left). People tend to mention what what they like personally, and yes the FFXIV side does not mention MP upkeep but look at yourself, you failed to mention how having multiple tiers of the same spell for example furthers the complexity of spell usage in FFXI for example and there is many more example of ignored things on both sides of that picture. BUT again let me explain to you the part of my point you missed:

look at the magnitude of complexity a game can offer in terms of gameplay
based on that you can calculate mathematically how many varieties you can implement in your game, your variety is as good as how complex your gameplay mechanics can go (how deep you made your rabbit hole). FFXIV magnitude of complexity is shallow and only allow for shuffling of simpleton mechanics only. (if you are still hung on FFXI being in the picture at least the base gameplay mechanics depth was deep enough for a lot of things whether the developers used it or not thats up to them and for the players to look forward to while in FFXIV case the game does NOT allow for in depth complexity because the game mathematically cannot produce it).

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Originally Posted by DSX

look at the magnitude of complexity a game can offer in terms of gameplay
based on that you can calculate mathematically how many varieties you can implement in your game, your variety is as good as hoe complex your gameplay mechanics can go (how deep you made your rabbit hole). FFXIV magnitude of complexity is shallow and only allow for shuffling of simpleton mechanics only. (if you are still hung on FFXI being in the picture at least the base gameplay mechanics depth was deep enough for a lot of things whether the developers used it or not thats up to them and for the players to look forward to while in FFXIV case the game does NOT allow for in depth complexity because the game mathematically cannot produce it).

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And yet again your example is BAD. the complexity you're trying to trumpet didn't exist in XI either, there were just as many if not more "Optimal Setups" (we all remember LolDRG) and everything was brought down to the same X DPS, X HPS, keep out of the bad. all XI had was more ability bloat (How many BRD songs were actually useful? 4? 2 if you counted Mage Ballads 1 and 2 as just the same song?) and more redundant classes. Long story short, show me a game where your "math" works, and I'll let it go, but XI sure as heck wasn't it and that's all you've used as an example. Heck even Eve Onlines oft touted "Hardcore"ness can be boiled down to its nature of being "World of Spreadsheets" and punishing Open World PvP environment.

Instead of trying to segregate hardcores vs. casuals, why don't we just give more incentive for hardcores to play with casuals. Add something like a new type of tome that you get for having a player in your party who has never completed that specific duty? Have those tomes used to make the best gear in the game better. Sure, you could run through a bunch of stuff with your current FC,LS, etc. but eventually you would have to reach out to new people, so there would be a certain point where the hardcores are looking for noobs to help. If something like this was implemented it would make the most hardcore player also the most helpful to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Maduro

Instead of trying to segregate hardcores vs. casuals, why don't we just give more incentive for hardcores to play with casuals. Add something like a new type of tome that you get for having a player in your party who has never completed that specific duty? Have those tomes used to make the best gear in the game better. Sure, you could run through a bunch of stuff with your current FC,LS, etc. but eventually you would have to reach out to new people, so there would be a certain point where the hardcores are looking for noobs to help. If something like this was implemented it would make the most hardcore player also the most helpful to everyone else.

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Because then the Hardcores I know will just start complaining say that SE does nerf Atma RNG and makes it static style drops, they'll say "This is too easy, I should be the only one with Animus" or rather they'll say something else in different words but truly mean what I quoted.

lol @ trying to level a new job on a hardcore server. "i've been waiting in the DF que for cutters cry for 3 days"

Hmm, Hardcore server
2.3 Hardcore: Coil 1-5 get removed. Please speed up to clear Coil 5 or the character get transfered to a casual server