*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by Veloran

It's a bit ironic, considering that using the Echo as it was used in 1.0 probably would have rectified the vast majority of issues surrounding Elpis, depending on the specifics. For example, say all the setup was the same, but instead of taking a portal to the past in CT WoL instead Echoes back through Elidibus' (now recovered) memories and you play as him for that entire section, watching everything go down and seeing everyone's memories get erased without having to escape it yourself.

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That idea does have potential to be honest. With 1.0 echo I don't think you'd even have to play as Elidibus to interact would you? You could be there and not be there at the same time, it even gels with Elidibus only sort of half-remembering you being there before you go.

I suppose the issue they've got there is that very few people are familiar with the 1.0 echo, while basically everyone is familiar with the concept of the crystal tower as a time machine. They'd have to lay some groundwork re-establishing it if they wanted to use it that way.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The problem would then be trying to explain how you're able to travel back and forth since it's a freely accessible zone now.

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With a few tweaks they could have twisted the 'echo reading the land' ability into using the echo on the tower to travel back and forth. Would have to be done pretty carefully though.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

But I feel like more so than the other expansions due to the expanding and explanation of the lore, things in EW get weird when looked under a microscope like we've been doing for tons of pages across multiple threads. I give the writers some slack since I treat FFXIV as a theme park MMO where the gameplay comes first, cameos and nostalgia from past FF games comes next, and looping it all together comes after that. I feel like if Yoshi-P got his chance to start it from the beginning, there would be fewer plot holes, retcons, and "huh?" moments and the fact that it's an MMO itself doesn't exactly help. I'm excited to see what FFXVI will bring though.

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Yeah, it was 100% not all planned from the start and it shows. I'd forgotten about XVI, now that you've mentioned it though it will be interesting to see what Yoshi-P can do with a game he has control over from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

This part seemed so odd to me. I had just assumed that after we left it was a one and done thing, but no... they keep sending me back there. In quests no less. People will be like "gee, I wish I had something from an ancient world long since lost to time. Shame that's impossible", and my WoL is like "oh, will this do? I basically live there now."

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The raid helps a little in this regard at least, establishing that while we TP for gameplay purposes, in-universe we have to back to the tower and use the portal there.

But is the portal in the tower a permanent thing? If so anyone in the First could use it if they know about it. Right now I think only WoL knows about it but that could be potentially devastating. Or are they taking the stance that no matter what happened in the past the timeline can’t change?

Because they would be super convenient If so.

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Originally Posted by Lium

But is the portal in the tower a permanent thing? If so anyone in the First could use it if they know about it. Right now I think only WoL knows about it but that could be potentially devastating. Or are they taking the stance that no matter what happened in the past the timeline can’t change?

Because they would be super convenient If so.

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Didn't G'raha give us his vial so we can command the tower? If so, I doubt anyone else can use that portal.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Didn't G'raha give us his vial so we can command the tower? If so, I doubt anyone else can use that portal.

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Unless someone steals the vial? To be clear, I really think the devs have only kept it around as an in-universe explanation for a gameplay mechanic. But in-universe that seems like it could be something quite dangerous just sort of dangling out there. Like Meteion flying around Etheirys now.

You need one of G'raha's blood-smeared spirit vessels (or rather Allagan royal blood, something only G'raha has) to actually use the tower.

Even if you did so, the portal to Elpis seems to be a bit more in flux. When you first make the trip Elidibus tunes it specifically to the point in time you need, and the unmarked Ancient memory crystal appears to do the same before you jump for Pandaemonium. The timing is a little too perfect to be coincidental.

... and yes, it's almost certainly just a gameplay convenience outside of points in the story where going to Elpis is important. (Don't wanna muck with the timeline too much.) Just like the Ragnarok magically replicating itself and existing both in Labyrinthos and Ultima Thule, or your mysteriously appearing cohort for the battle against Susano'o. Some things you just have to acknowledge are there just for gameplay convenience and there's a bit of a disconnect between it and the story. Particularly in MMOs where for gameplay purposes you can't permanently block off access to a field zone. (I can still go to Argus even though the space bridge Illidan opened is visibly gone and don't have command of the Vindicaar anyway? Huh.)

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Originally Posted by Lium

Unless someone steals the vial? To be clear, I really think the devs have only kept it around as an in-universe explanation for a gameplay mechanic. But in-universe that seems like it could be something quite dangerous just sort of dangling out there. Like Meteion flying around Etheirys now.

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Sure, although it is fairly secure to be honest. The key and the door are kept in different dimensions that only we can travel between.

The only real opportunity to pinch it is when we jump over to use it, and we can choose to land a 5 minute walk from the Towers front door, and when we land is basically random from the point of view of any potential thieves.

It's far more secure than most stuff we and the Scions look after ;)

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Sure, although it is fairly secure to be honest. The key and the door are kept in different dimensions that only we can travel between.

The only real opportunity to pinch it is when we jump over to use it, and we can choose to land a 5 minute walk from the Towers front door, and when we land is basically random from the point of view of any potential thieves.

It's far more secure than most stuff we and the Scions look after ;)

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Not to mention you could make it even more secure by talking to the ironworks bloke in the syrcus trench and go straight to the ocular and the door to the past.

One thing I do find humor in is how self-defeating the stable time loop angle turned out to be. The writing for Endwalker did a hard turn away from the shades of grey we saw in ShB, with their intent very clearly being to paint Venat as a sort of "hero we needed, but not the one we deserved." The problem? Attempting to do this while at the same time granting her detailed foreknowledge of the horrors to come -- horrors she could easily have prevented, knowing what she did -- is the equivalent of shooting oneself in the foot.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

One thing I do find humor in is how self-defeating the stable time loop angle turned out to be. The writing for Endwalker did a hard turn away from the shades of grey we saw in ShB, with their intent very clearly being to paint Venat as a sort of "hero we needed, but not the one we deserved." The problem? Attempting to do this while at the same time granting her detailed foreknowledge of the horrors to come -- horrors she could easily have prevented, knowing what she did -- is the equivalent of shooting oneself in the foot.

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But it added also to one of the points the game has tried to make since the beginning of ARR. There is no black and white, only shades of grey. Because you say there's a hard turn from grey, but as we saw, there were many ways Venat could have done things differently. She is as grey as the Ascians.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

She is as grey as the Ascians.

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I disagree solely due to how the game treats her. There is never a single scene with an Ascian in which my character doesn't have an angry expression often combined with the 'come at me' stance. (I'm not counting post-defeat pity.) This is in stark contrast to everything Venat/Hydaelyn, which is only ever smiles, affirmative dialog options, etc. It doesn't matter if we can argue their actions were grey when the game itself treats the two as black & white.