Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

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Originally Posted by Awha

No system is perfect, each one can be abused. SE went with a majority you can view it as unfair, but that is the reality of our vote system in FFXIV. Though I will say I find it interesting SE went with the majority system if they view DF as something that is meant for the bare minimum to progress through content. If they either went with unanimous, or factoring in the vote of the person being kicked either one of those systems would work if that is truly their goal.

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its not actually a majority when it comes to playstyle.

they didnt actually initially intend playstyle to be a valid consideration. They created the categories for a legit kick, and warned people kicking incorrectly is actionable.

afk/offline/harrassment, these are the things that a confirmation is generally good enough. Playstyle though, doesnt really fit the tool's use. If 50% of the party believes one thing and 50% believes the other, the first to initiate a kick wins, not the majority opinion.

also, you seem to think SE always chooses the best implementation, they adapt and alter based on new info/desire/etc so, conversations are not just going to be based on whats there now, but also on what people think it should be as well. SE of course makes the final deciscion.

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Originally Posted by Physic

its not actually a majority when it comes to playstyle.

they didnt actually initially intend playstyle to be a valid consideration. They created the categories for a legit kick, and warned people kicking incorrectly is actionable.

afk/offline/harrassment, these are the things that a confirmation is generally good enough. Playstyle though, doesnt really fit the tool's use. If 50% of the party believes one thing and 50% believes the other, the first to initiate a kick wins, not the majority opinion.

also, you seem to think SE always chooses the best implementation, they adapt and alter based on new info/desire/etc so, conversations are not just going to be based on whats there now, but also on what people think it should be as well. SE of course makes the final deciscion.

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That is the thing SE has access to all the data regarding the use of the vote kick system, if SE felt that the system was being abused even by a small group of players I am sure they would take action as a whole. I mean they did remove chat from feast, and at the time the active player base of the feast was not that large. It is a majority between the players that are granted permission to vote, that is the system SE went with and within that system the majority is needed for a vote to pass.

Though it would be nice if SE did make it clear what they consider fair, since sure the drop down menu has determined options, but we also have GM's on record saying difference of play style is a valid reason.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

I was talking more like kicking someone for being a butt or something, but yeah I guess in the case of single vs large pulls it would be even. But I mean, it's only 4 people, requiring all 3 people to agree with something I think is too high a hurdle, at least in my opinion. I would be interested in what they require for 8 mans.



I never said anything was "scary", I was saying it is how it is, and it would be majority rule.

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The kick system is designed for dealing with problem players

if they want a conflict resolution, or go seperate ways system....

i would create a vote break system, which can only happen after a certain amount of progress has been made. where its a yes/no question. If its 50/50 party is dissolved, and each side gets half of whatever they would get for completion bonus. if its 3/1 the 3 keep the instance and the 1 gets half of whatever the completion bonus is.

for 1 per day rewards, the total exp/tomestones, whatever cant go over the 1 day totals.


of course thats way more complicated, and i doubt they would do it, but it would be a better tool for disagreements of opinion as opposed to removal of problem players.

and, since the player gets something out of it, its not like you are being harshly punished, just for a disagreement.

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Originally Posted by Awha

That is the thing SE has access to all the data regarding the use of the vote kick system, if SE felt that the system was being abused even by a small group of players I am sure they would take action as a whole. I mean they did remove chat from feast, and at the time the active player base of the feast was not that large. It is a majority between the players that are granted permission to vote, that is the system SE went with and within that system the majority is needed for a vote to pass.

Though it would be nice if SE did make it clear what they consider fair, since sure the drop down menu has determined options, but we also have GM's on record saying difference of play style is a valid reason.

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no, SE isnt a god, everything requires resources and awareness. They have to realize there is a problem, study the problem, decide if its worth it to solve the problem, then come up with implementation.

This process often takes years to get right. And for somethings, just never gets solved.

All i am saying is, assuming that SE has considered and solved a problem to their own satisfaction, just because its how it is ingame right now, is definitely a bad assumption

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Originally Posted by Physic

they didnt actually initially intend playstyle to be a valid consideration.

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Why do you keep touting this like it is fact when you have been shown that it is the exact opposite. Your opinion does not matter, the GMs have clearly stated playstyle difference IS an acceptable reason for a kick. Repeating an untruth does not make it truth.

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Originally Posted by Physic

no, SE isnt a god, everything requires resources and awareness. They have to realize there is a problem, study the problem, decide if its worth it to solve the problem, then come up with implementation.

This process often takes years to get right. And for somethings, just never gets solved.

All i am saying is, assuming that SE has considered and solved a problem to their own satisfaction, just because its how it is ingame right now, is definitely a bad assumption

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I know they are not gods, and nothing is free but given SE record when it comes to tools that have the potential to be misused and cause harm to other players they have gone through great lengths to either clarify their stance or take measures to changes enforce their desired outcome. Yet regarding this area a lot of left to the interruption of the community. We have GM's stating something that goes against the very options from the menu for vote kicking.

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Originally Posted by Physic

its not actually a majority when it comes to playstyle.

they didnt actually initially intend playstyle to be a valid consideration. They created the categories for a legit kick, and warned people kicking incorrectly is actionable.

afk/offline/harrassment, these are the things that a confirmation is generally good enough. Playstyle though, doesnt really fit the tool's use. If 50% of the party believes one thing and 50% believes the other, the first to initiate a kick wins, not the majority opinion.

also, you seem to think SE always chooses the best implementation, they adapt and alter based on new info/desire/etc so, conversations are not just going to be based on whats there now, but also on what people think it should be as well. SE of course makes the final deciscion.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Why do you keep touting this like it is fact when you have been shown that it is the exact opposite. Your opinion does not matter, the GMs have clearly stated playstyle difference IS an acceptable reason for a kick. Repeating an untruth does not make it truth.

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Because sadly, most of humanity bases their beliefs off of feelings rather than provable fact.

They feel it is wrong, therefore it is. Any information that challenges their original beliefs will be explained away, or ignored.

Basic human nature.

In fact some study's have shown that disproving someone's beliefs, may actually cause them to become even more adamant about their mistaken belief. Humanity..... we're doomed.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Because sadly, most of humanity bases their beliefs off of feelings rather than provable fact.

They feel it is wrong, therefore it is. Any information that challenges their original beliefs will be explained away, or ignored.

Basic human nature.

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I suppose so. :) It's just mind-boggling to me. I mean it is one thing to think a certain way, but when you are shown that you are not correct, accept it and stop repeating the same wrong information. It's not even a grey area... that gm response said explicitly playstyle differences were valid and just because it does not appear as one of the options does not mean is a violation of the rules. I mean I know you know this just... *throws hands up in the air*

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Originally Posted by Aramina

I suppose so. :) It's just mind-boggling to me. I mean it is one thing to think a certain way, but when you are shown that you are not correct, accept it and stop repeating the same wrong information. It's not even a grey area... that gm response said explicitly play style differences were valid and just because it does not appear as one of the options does not mean is a violation of the rules. I mean I know you know this just... *throws hands up in the air*

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It's funny because most people believe they are being logical, when in fact what they are doing, is reinforcing their social standing with their group (who have commonly held beliefs). Turns out humans are actually bad at logic, but are great at twisting their own ideology to fit in with the social circle they have chosen.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

It's funny because most people believe they are being logical, when in fact what they are doing, is reinforcing their social standing with their group (who have commonly held beliefs). Turns out humans are actually bad at logic, but are great at twisting their own ideology to fit in with the social circle they have chosen.

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Oh for sure, and I am probably a victim of that as much as anyone, I just try to not cross the line of being shown that I am wrong. It'd be one thing if it were just two sides with one saying "it's a valid reason" and "it's not a valid reason", but when it gets to a GM (who are responsible for upholding the rules) saying "it's legit".... it's time to pack it in. Lol. I am all for discussion and debate of opinions, but objective fact trumps it :)