What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

You and Theodric have this weird thing about claiming Gr'aha liking you being a "consent" issue, when it isn't. Gr'aha isn't doing anything but asking to go adventures with the player, and this isn't the type of game where you get to pick and choose your party. If he got replaced with Aymeric or something, it's not like the game will ask you if you want to tell Elf Knight to take a hike.



Dude. Gr'aha was NOT his target. What are you talking about?

You might as well be complaining that Elidibus had several chances to kill Chai-Nuzz and never bothered. You're welcome to your opinion, but I don't see how Elidibus never becoming a Gr'aha-killing Terminator is at all relevant or valid.

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FFS lady my consent comment was about SHOVING HIS SOUL INTO HIS PAST SELF WHICH WE ARE NEVER SHOWN. Lawd have mercy, and again, my elidibus comment is because prior to 5.3 the man isn’t stupid. He knows graha is strong and also can manipulate the tower. Common sense says to get someone that problematic out of the picture asap. Chai nuzz is completely not a threat. Graha is. You’re being willfully obtuse. Just stop.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I'm not talking about you liking the character or not. I'm talking about you believing that not liking the character makes it an issue of "consent" which, it isn't.

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It's an issue of consent in the sense that the development team should be more widely aware that 'fan favourites' are not universally adored and that the constant hero worship is not to everybody's cup of tea to begin with.

The G'raha problem is an off shoot of the Venat controversy - this strange insistence that the player character has to like and have this deep connection instead of just...giving us dialogue options that reflect a broader range of reactions. The same result can still be pushed through but with the decency to give our character some agency.

Even if it's as simple as a choice between our character sighing in resignation and happily agreeing.

As it stands of the many reasons I cannot connect with my character the dorky situations he's constantly expected to indulge is very much at the forefront. I think some of us are just asking for such obsessions to be dialled back a bit.

Did Elidibus know that? I didn’t get the feeling he knew the exact circumstances of Emet-Selch’s death.

Also, I’m not allowed to tell any other Scion I don’t want them in my party. I’m not allowed to “improve” Werlyt by kicking Gaius out of the plot. I can’t tell Hien and Doma to go pound sand. G’raha is no different from any other ally NPC in that regard and if we’re going to get options to tell NPCs how we REALLY feel, he’s far from the first on my list.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Did Elidibus know that? I didn’t get the feeling he knew the exact circumstances of Emet-Selch’s death.

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If I recall correctly he mentions having watched the fight itself unfold from afar. (Which begs the question as to why he did not seek to intervene...but I digress!)

Presumably he would have seen what happened immediately before and after as well.

G'raha Tia is a man who constantly forces himself onto the player character and cannot go a patch without expressing how much he cares and wants to be with us on the next adventure. Yes, at this point it is indeed a consent issue because his behaviour has gone beyond reasonable writing and has turned into overt fanfiction.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Did Elidibus know that? I didn’t get the feeling he knew the exact circumstances of Emet-Selch’s death.

Also, I’m not allowed to tell any other Scion I don’t want them in my party. I’m not allowed to “improve” Werlyt by kicking Gaius out of the plot. I can’t tell Hien and Doma to go pound sand. G’raha is no different from any other ally NPC in that regard and if we’re going to get options to tell NPCs how we REALLY feel, he’s far from the first on my list.

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Elidibus quite literally explicitly says he watched our fight against Emet Selch…

Personally i dont agree with every complaint in this thread, though i can see some points in many of them. However I feel the complaints are representative of a larger issue where venat/EW plotpoints resulted in a 'damn bursting' effect where everyone is looking back and is agitated at things they didnt find as much as a issue in the past and so on.

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

However I feel the complaints are representative of a larger issue where venat/EW plotpoints resulted in a 'damn bursting' effect where everyone is looknig back and is agitated at things they didnt find as much as a issue in the past and so on.

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I'd agree with this. I didn't have a problem with the Scions before EW, but after another expansion with no character change or growth, invincible plot armor, and sanctimonious speeches I just can't be bothered with them anymore. I do still like some, but they all suffer from this.

Plus, when you have the civilization of the antagonists from the previous expansion, who we utterly decimated, continue to be used as emotional manipulation because the writers won't touch the Scions (they have to squeeze those tears from somewhere) it just starts to feel gross.

I wanted the sundered to develop empathy and an appreciation for what the unsundered went through only for the Final Days to be virtually nothing to them outside of a couple of zones. The Scions aren't forced to make the same difficult choices the Convocation did.

We're also led to believe that the Ancients were always doomed and because of that players weren't forced to consider the actions of Venat or Hermes because what did it matter? They were all going to want to kill themselves in the future anyway. I felt this removed much needed gravity from the situation. We definitely should not have come away from the purposeful eradication of a people and civilization feeling good about it and like they had been done a favor.

Going from that tragedy to the overt comic relief, IMO, inappropriately thrust into story beats that should have remained heavy (like the lopporits) felt like the writers were trying to make light of these situations and I didn't appreciate it. I felt like a lot of what should've been a serious, thought provoking narrative was undermined on multiple fronts.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

[...] Even if it's as simple as a choice between our character sighing in resignation and happily agreeing.

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I'm a fan of the "...okay" head tilt myself, personally.

I frequently appreciate that we often do have the choice between "yeah, let's do this!" and "god, do I have to?", and that typically we are able to respond less enthusiastically when someone gets excited over pairing up with the WoL. We even get the chance to shoot some of the Scions down themselves more than a few times, and I don't think anyone else should be immune to this simply due to popularity. As you say, even the option of a defeated sigh would go a long way.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I wanted the sundered to develop empathy and an appreciation for what the unsundered went through only for the Final Days to be virtually nothing to them outside of a couple of zones.

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To be honest, I lost all hope of this the moment the last of Emet's aether faded away, and Alphinaud immediately came bounding up to us with absolutely zero cognition as to what that moment might have meant for the WoL and happily declared that "Emet-Selch is no more!" as if we were ecstatic over our grand victory. Read the room, Alphinaud.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

To be honest, I lost all hope of this the moment the last of Emet's aether faded away, and Alphinaud immediately came bounding up to us with absolutely zero cognition as to what that moment might have meant for the WoL and happily declared that "Emet-Selch is no more!" as if we were ecstatic over our grand victory. Read the room, Alphinaud.

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Meanwhile, after Hydaelyn:

Alisaie: No! This can't be happening!

The fact that the Scions historically do not seem to care much about anything involving the Ancients in regard to the WoL has been frustrating and just adds to my feeling that they're more colleagues than friends. I'm left to headcanon that my WoL simply didn't share personal details with them outside of mentioning Azem. Particularly in regards to Emet, who the WoL is visibly upset about, they don't have much to say. I suppose it's at least something they didn't cheer when he disappeared in UT (though G'raha might have internally). :P