The Lessons Not Learned.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

If I wished to show respect, I would call her Ms. Ishikawa
Play it safe with "Ms." since I am not aware of her marital status.

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In Japanese usage and language custom, you would refer to her or speak to her as Natsuko-san. I am utterly amazed this has to be actually explained to anyone..

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

By the way, you also notice I refer to her as Ishikawa Natsuko-san, which is AGAIN the proper way to address her and refer to her, family name first, first name last[/I]

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The order is context-dependent. Just as you could rightly be called スミス・ジャン (Smith John) in a Japanese conversation, it is fine to put someone's family name in the position it goes in normally within an English conversation. The purpose is to show which is the family name and which the given name, after all, in the given context -- not necessarily per its source.

What's actually odd is you appending -さん if you haven't met her. If you've never met the person, and especially when speaking also to others who are likewise not their acquaintances, appending -さん is less a matter of being polite than just being a bit weird. It comes off as throwing names around, fakely in this case.

The use and reach of suffixing titles in Japanese does not perfectly mirror those of English titles. In Japanese, さん conveys a degree of at least fairly direct acquaintanceship. That may be inherited in some way (such as by using it when asking after the family member whom you might refer to with that suffix, or by speaking with those who'd all likewise use -さん for the person in question), but you don't just blithely slap -さん onto every name for safe politeness as one might with "Ms." or "Mr."

You would respectfully address her as Natsuko-san, certainly. But, having never actually addressed (nor met) her, you would not typically refer to her as Natsuko-san. You'd do so only after having actually met or conversed with her or while in conversation among her acquaintances who would refer to her likewise.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...917.1654817530

I can't seem to find where the 'san' part is. The official credits for the game must be referring to her wrong then I suppose. Damn those incorrect credits!!! *shakes fist at the sky*

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When you look at credits for something in English, do you look for Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. in front of every name? Because that's what -san is.

I know hai means yes

I don't know no

I know when written, no is longer than yes

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...917.1654817530

I can't seem to find where the 'san' part is. The official credits for the game must be referring to her wrong then I suppose. Damn those incorrect credits!!! *shakes fist at the sky*

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eh…it’s inappropriate to put -san in credits. Similar to titles, we don’t use them in credits

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

To be honest?

Doesnt matter what they do, doesnt matter what they put into the game...you lot will ALWAYS find something to complain about.

Its funny..in a sad, tragic kind of way.

Calling me a "white knight" for praising the game, appreciating their hard work and enjoying myself. GOD FORBID I should do that..........

Sheesh.

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I tend to agree in principle.

I'm not going to repeat comments I've made in other threads beyond saying that having come from another MMO where the Devs and CM both demonstrated and voiced the fact that player feedback was absolutely irrelevant, and tended to respond to the the select few questions they could be bothered to answer in their Livestreams with either disinterest, mockery or disdain.

I will note, however, that it was a double-edged sword because one of the reasons they cared so little about community feedback was that sufficient numbers of players were buying their gamble/loot boxes and expensive bundles, as well as falling for their FOMO-based nonsense. With that in mind they undoubtedly didn't feel any need to care - because sadly, It doesn't matter how much you hate or bemoan the sleazy marketing tactics of a game like that; if you do so, but give them your money anyway, you are communicating what kind of abuse you are willing to accept in the only language they understand or care about.

For me at least, FFXIV has been a real breath of fresh air in comparison!

Well, this thread derailed again.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

When non-JP people start referring to others, particularly those they've never met and will never in their lives interact with, with the -san suffix, you know the conversation has run its course.

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You are quite correct. The more correct term of reference would be "Natsuko-sama".

Honorifics are not just used when talking with someone. They are also used when talking about someone who may not be present with others. The latter is pretty much required, by the way, unless you are referring to a mutual friend.

"Natsuko-san" is fine as well, but I assume the original writer views Natsuko Ishikawa with some level of esteem.

The only thing they appear to get wrong is that "Natsuko" is, indeed, the family name. The Producer's family name is "Naoki".

To the poster of the quote: The discussion is indeed getting pretty thin when all you can complain about is non-Japanese players referring to Japanese people with Japanese honorifics.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The only thing they appear to get wrong is that "Natsuko" is, indeed, the family name. The Producer's family name is "Naoki".

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Umm, no they didn’t get that wrong at all. Her family name is Ishikawa. Yoshi-P’s family name is Yoshida.

Ah, western audiences. :D :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Well, this thread derailed again.

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It never had rails to begin with.