How do we feel about tank damage right now?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Of course. Now make every single heal oGCD with no cast time, and every DPS ability instant with no cast time, and we can start comparing to tanks.

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So… normal way most experienced healers heal in average to ideal situations?
As for the instant DPS spells, SCH and WHM have those. WHM has two oGCD DPS abilities (one of them actually heals on top of that) and their dot. SCH has Art of War, Ruin 2, and their dot. AST just has their dot.

Cool, requirements met. I can compare tanks to healers.

Oh wait, we can’t do that. Here’s the thing: as a healer I can do 0 damage and just cast a cure spell and that is me doing my advertised role.

Tanks cannot do 0 damage and perform their role. They have to, constantly, deal damage in order to stay ahead of the DPS in enmity (even with tank stance on), so they can keep “tanking the enemy”.

Tanks have to be ABC. Healer’s don’t have to.

So yeah, we can’t compare, but not because of the requirements you stated above, but because one role doesn’t require ABC to do their job, the other does.

Or maybe we can… since there is a different in effort and opportunity versus outcome. Just like what is trying to be explained within the above posts.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

[…] of course it's possible. But, see, here's the thing. When people were like "OMG white mage can outdamage even some tanks!", this wasn't true even in the 99th percentile.
In order to support this, you have to look at "max damage", so basically cherry picked parses so small they don't represent even the top 1%. Meaning it's a far, far more rare than you make it out to be. In practice, not even the top 1% of healers can regularly DPS that much.

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You understand that FFLOGs doesn’t “cherry pick” the parses. The only cherry picking that happens is by the uploader.

As a portion of the population, the outlier WHMs are a portion of a portion of a population. Not the whole population. Yes, the outlier WHM population looks completely insignificant against the total population. It becomes significant when you compare that outlier to the events the oulting happened and to that population.

A percent population within a percent population is significant. It also shows that, removing all barriers, those WHMs were able to outdeal damage compared to a role that has more APM and sequential buttons to push in a specific order. Of course, in order to even allow those outlier WHMs to happen, everyone had to play their best.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But how close are you to this top healer-DPS when you have to dedicate several GCD healing ?
So, in a sense, your DPS is a group effort...while tank's GCD usage is solely focused on itself.

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Healer DPS is group damage, technically. Healer DPS is the reward given to a group for performing well enough to allow healing downtime to occur. It’s the same concept like in older games where a healer would have time to buff a DD with a spell in order to increase that DDs damage. FFXI’s WHM casting Haste on a DD is a good example.
Every group should strive to allow as much healing downtime as possible.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

On a sidenote, if you can win an end-game content without relying at all (or close) to your healing spells (Since oGCD are abilities), it means the content has a design issue.

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Agreed

SE can fix content and make more spell heavy activities, they did it often in FFXI… before Abyssea and Voidwatch era.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

On a sidenote, if you can win an end-game content without relying at all (or close) to your healing spells (Since oGCD are abilities), it means the content has a design issue.

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In fact, no. If you can do that, you are playing the content as intended: On a high skill level with minimal to no mistakes. GCD healing abilities are there to compensate mistakes and overall bad gameplay. See it as an additional resource for emergencies (or, in a DF like scenario, a tool to carry average DPS players).

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

In fact, no. If you can do that, you are playing the content as intended:

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Based on...your assumption ?

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

GCD healing abilities are there to compensate mistakes and overall bad gameplay. See it as an additional resource for emergencies (or, in a DF like scenario, a tool to carry average DPS players).

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Every unavoidable damage are not result of any "mistakes" or "bad play". You shouldn't be able to cover all of those with only your oGCDs. In fact, the oGCD should be your "emergency" since they're the skills that you can cast instantly.

Not talking about unavoidable damage, obviously.

Refer to my signature for clarification.

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

Not talking about unavoidable damage, obviously.

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So, I'll say it again. If you can cover all healing requirements with just your oGCD, then the content is not tuned properly.

The most basic example is that tanks should take more damage from auto-attacks than what HoT can heal, enough that you can't simply wait for your next oGCD to be available.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, I'll say it again. If you can cover all healing requirements with just your oGCD, then the content is not tuned properly.

The most basic example is that tanks should take more damage from auto-attacks than what HoT can heal, enough that you can't simply wait for your next oGCD to be available.

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Except all optimised groups are 20ilvls above the reccommended ilvl, thus outgearing the content. This leads to not having to cast GCD heals as often.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Except all optimised groups are 20ilvls above the reccommended ilvl, thus outgearing the content. This leads to not having to cast GCD heals as often.

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It still stands. At no point you should be able to do an Extreme/Savage content synced without GCD heals. Or, to say it differently, healers shouldn't have that much oGCD heals. Remember back in ARR where Benediction was the only oGCD heal for WHM ?

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

In fact, no. If you can do that, you are playing the content as intended: On a high skill level with minimal to no mistakes. GCD healing abilities are there to compensate mistakes and overall bad gameplay. See it as an additional resource for emergencies (or, in a DF like scenario, a tool to carry average DPS players).

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What you're describing is how we exploit a poorly designed system not its intended use. It's no secret the dev team still believes we frequently GCD heal. One of the primary complaints from career healers is how little use GCD heals have nowadays, which makes the jobs all boring since the vast majority of your healing comes while you're spamming Glare/Broil/Malefic.

That isn't to say they should become our main focus again. But at this stage, they border on near non-existent. Of course, healing as a whole is far too overpowered in this game. Which is another reason the devs can't seem to figure out the role.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It still stands. At no point you should be able to do an Extreme/Savage content synced without GCD heals. Or, to say it differently, healers shouldn't have that much oGCD heals. Remember back in ARR where Benediction was the only oGCD heal for WHM ?

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I can't say I see the problem with having strong oGCD heals to rely on. Why is it a problem SCH can heal raid wide AoEs with indom instead of succor, or that WHM can use assize instead of Medica? I wont go into a huge rant over it, because this thread is about tanks,not healers, but to put it briefly. Unless they make healing itself more interesting ie, do more than press a button and get big heal, just making healers heal more would be detrimental. Both the classes and encounters are not designed for it, and outside of a massive ARR level rework, that won't change.