You pull you tank question.

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Originally Posted by GTK0HLK

This is confusing, it sounds like you're talking about the generally understood outliers one faces in old content, as well as the Concept of "Basic Competency" that a minority in the forums takes as a form of elitism, when it's just about having players know the bare minimum when it comes to doing their part in Content with other players.

Which, YPYT is only a small fragment of the said variables that can show up. (And "SHOULDN'T" be something that shows up. Cause it's always about the Ego of a Tank.)
[And in the times it isn't the Tank, it's Clear as day where it's occurring. as Tanks, Healers, and DPS that understand what Basic Competency is, Know where thr issues are. and are also understanding and forgiving of accidents.]

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1) "outliers one faces in old content" -> I mention someone at the end of the Dawntrail expansion performing this way and cite a video you can see it for yourself.
2) "always about the ego of a tank" and then switching to "and in the times it isn't the tank" just contradicted your point because always is 100% of the time.

Per a request of a friend, I'm not responding to non-cohesive/contradicting arguments on the forums like that.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

This is what most people seem to not understand. Should is not the same as actually existing. Should I have a healer that doesn't do aoe damage? No. But if I run 100 dungeons, I will find several of them. Should a dps know their aoe rotation by ShB,EW,DT? Yes. But that doesn't mean that will happen every run. If you go to Youtube and type in "dawntrail final trial cutscenes" and find a certain upload that was around 3 weeks ago, 40k views, 36min long, you will see a player that is at the final trial in DT. That is using aoe abilities on a single target boss. That is doing 3-5 oGCD's consistently before a GCD. That is taking 10-15s off of using GCD's. That is weaving slowly to the point of consistently clipping the downtime rotation even. And all of these non-optimal mistakes are made consistently throughout the entire fight and are not just merely misclicks. Should this be happening at Level 100 content? No. But guess what? Someone had them in party for every dungeon and trial they did up to that point. A tank dealt with them at some point. At no point has a tank ever asserted that these incidents happen every run or that they happen most runs. "Should" is not an argument against YPYT because it does not cover 100% of instances, and therefore does not address every situation.

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What does that have to do with ypyt? If someone is doing low damage in dungeons it's still optimal to take aggro from them instead of letting them die to autoattacks. Low damage is better than no damage.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

What does that have to do with ypyt? If someone is doing low damage in dungeons it's still optimal to take aggro from them instead of letting them die to autoattacks. Low damage is better than no damage.

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Low damage or low healing with high damage in is how you die. That is why is it relevant. Healers and tanks do not have infinite sustain for any damage output to be fine. And tanks do not have infinite health and cooldowns for any healing output to be fine. When you have the choice between letting someone die or allowing them to potentially cause a wipe/an inconvenience to you or others in the party, that is what ypyt is. 1 death is better than entire group wipe or messed up cooldowns in future pulls or a boss.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Low damage or low healing with high damage in is how you die. That is why is it relevant. Healers and tanks do not have infinite sustain for any damage output to be fine. And tanks do not have infinite health and cooldowns for any healing output to be fine. When you have the choice between letting someone die or allowing them to potentially cause a wipe/an inconvenience to you or others in the party, that is what ypyt is. 1 death is better than entire group wipe or messed up cooldowns in future pulls or a boss.

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Ypyt tanks don't wait for a wipe to happen to justify turning off their tank stance. They overestimate the incoming damage and act like they are doing the party a favor when in reality, if they actually tried to do their job, they would notice that tanking an additional pack has no negative consequences. Healers will not run out of mp in a dungeon pull since they are designed to be able to heal 10 minute raid encounters.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

They overestimate the incoming damage and act like they are doing the party a favor when in reality, if they actually tried to do their job, they would notice that tanking an additional pack has no negative consequences. Healers will not run out of mp in a dungeon.

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1) "overestimate the incoming damage" -> Assumption
2) if they actually tried to do their job" -> 2nd Assumption
3) "tanking an additional pack has no negative consequences" -> In your estimation, which is less valid than the tank's considering they have more information about the sustain of the pull than you do given you don't know their cooldowns or rotation order they'd use. 3rd assumption
4) "healers will not run out of mp in a dungeon" -> 4th assumption. factually incorrect given any situation of damage in that could necessitate gcd healing is on a timer. you can't spam cure2/benefic2/adlo infinitely even with lucid. healers only using ogcd's to heal is under a prerequisite that there's enough damage to kill the adds before that capped healing output is reached because you are cooldown timer limited. anytime the damage in passes that threshold, you are forced into gcd healing to keep the tank alive, which puts you on a timer. if you go into the right instance with a tank and healer and put them by themselves with no dps, and you put 2-5 sets of adds on top of them, they will eventually die. there's an underlying assumption of minimum damage output that's needed. and that is a /should have this/ situation, not a, impossible to not reach this situation.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

1 death is better than entire group wipe or messed up cooldowns in future pulls or a boss.

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Only 1 death? Oh man, I'd love if the YPYTs I've seen only resulted in 1 death. The way things usually go down, I'd almost think they're just wiping the entire group out of spite. No way, right?
Also what's with the assumption that the "offending" party is always a DPS? What's the logic behind "sacrificing" a healer?

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Low damage or low healing with high damage in is how you die.

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Assumption. The damage may not be high enough to cause a wipe.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Healers and tanks do not have infinite sustain for any damage output to be fine. And tanks do not have infinite health and cooldowns for any healing output to be fine.

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Assumption. Sustain and cooldowns can be enough for an additional pack.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

When you have the choice between letting someone die or allowing them to potentially cause a wipe/an inconvenience to you or others in the party, that is what ypyt is.

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Assumption. There can be a third choice: tanking the additional mobs, killing them, inconveniencing no one and progressing faster than you would have without the additional pull.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

1 death is better than entire group wipe or messed up cooldowns in future pulls or a boss.

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Assumption. 1 death can lead to further deaths and/or a slower duty completion time.

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Instead of making all these assumptions, ypyt tanks should test if they are correct. Keep tank stance on, tank everything and see if the group dies. It'll sting on the ego when you don't wipe and realise ypyt is the wrong approach but it's ok.

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Originally Posted by Router

Only 1 death? Oh man, I'd love if the YPYTs I've seen only resulted in 1 death. The way things usually go down, I'd almost think they're just wiping the entire group out of spite. No way, right?
Also what's with the assumption that the "offending" party is always a DPS? What's the logic behind "sacrificing" a healer?

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Not always a DPS, just the majority. Most healers aren't stupid enough to draw aggro before a tank. Most of them learn this problem when they cast too strong of a heal and adds the tank even tagged already go to them thus making the tank turn around and slow down the pull due to them being mobbed out early.

If the YPYT didn't result in 1 death, it's because someone else skipped the tutorial in hall of novice and tagged things they shouldn't have or were blind and didn't adjust to the tank.

- Tank has tank stance.
- Tank grabs 3 adds.
- DPS and Heal target 3 adds after.
- 2nd DPS grabs 3 extra adds.

Tank AFK's -> Don't attack or heal to avoid generating enmity that's going to rip it away from the tank. If he dies, that's on him. Whether it was a purposeful AFK, a keyboard/controller disconnect, etc. doesn't matter. You'd treat the situation the same way. If I see my tank not moving for a good second and he's looking even remotely close to death, I'm already running away back toward home base for his respawn. I'm not going to sit there and I already know what's going to happen 10-15s down the line. In most situations, iirc, they de-aggro after a certain range and won't follow anymore regardless.

Tank turns off tank stance -> Doesn't matter. You still see the enmity button indicating when you're about to pass the tank. Stop dealing damage/healing before it gets to that final stage.

Tank goes to single target -> You switch to single target the same as Hall of Novice.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Assumption. The damage may not be high enough to cause a wipe.
Assumption. Sustain and cooldowns can be enough for an additional pack.
Assumption. There can be a third choice: tanking the additional mobs, killing them, inconveniencing no one and progressing faster than you would have without the additional pull.
Assumption. 1 death can lead to further deaths and/or a slower duty completion time.
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Instead of making all these assumptions, ypyt tanks should test if they are correct. Keep tank stance on, tank everything and see if the group dies. It'll sting on the ego when you don't wipe and realise ypyt is the wrong approach but it's ok.

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Spamming assumption when you state something that matches what I wrote isn't how that's supposed to work. in each of your statements "can" is a reference to the possibility of, which also indicates the possibility of not happening. The fact you aren't able to use the word "will be" is the entire point of the situation. It's a subjective call that is not 100% failure, nor 100% success.

As a tank, the likelihood of those is for them to decide. It is their job to live, not the dps's. Whether they are right or wrong, it is their choice for how they use their cooldowns. It is not a DPS's job to tell another player how to use their cooldowns and force them to use their cooldowns in that way.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Not always a DPS, just the majority. Most healers aren't stupid enough to draw aggro before a tank. Most of them learn this problem when they cast too strong of a heal and adds the tank even tagged already go to them thus making the tank turn around and slow down the pull due to them being mobbed out early.

If the YPYT didn't result in 1 death, it's because someone else skipped the tutorial in hall of novice and tagged things they shouldn't have or were blind and didn't adjust to the tank.

- Tank has tank stance.
- Tank grabs 3 adds.
- DPS and Heal target 3 adds after.
- 2nd DPS grabs 3 extra adds.

Tank AFK's -> Don't attack or heal to avoid generating enmity that's going to rip it away from the tank. If he dies, that's on him. Whether it was a purposeful AFK, a keyboard/controller disconnect, etc. doesn't matter. You'd treat the situation the same way. If I see my tank not moving for a good second and he's looking even remotely close to death, I'm already running away back toward home base for his respawn. I'm not going to sit there and I already know what's going to happen 10-15s down the line. In most situations, iirc, they de-aggro after a certain range and won't follow anymore regardless.

Tank turns off tank stance -> Doesn't matter. You still see the enmity button indicating when you're about to pass the tank. Stop dealing damage/healing before it gets to that final stage.

Tank goes to single target -> You switch to single target the same as Hall of Novice.

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You could have just posted "Bend over backwards to satisfy my ego trip" and it would have conveyed the same meaning. Have you tried acting like an adult and communicating with your party instead?