So, can we just ban damage meters already.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Well sure, *now* they're all much easier. Take that same situation when the fight was relevant and I doubt your group would've made it. But yes, once the clears started coming in, people stopped complaining. I'd argue that's because, ultimately, these encounters were designed well and the devs saw that people were clearing at rates that fell within expectations. For me, Weeping City's situation was revealing in that people who thought they were much better at the game and demanded "midcore" content got something close to that and couldn't tackle it right away. Rather than consider they needed to improve, they immediately complained it was too difficult.

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Nor should they. We essentially had twice Alliances for content supposedly necessitating three. That speaks to how absolutely pathetic the DPS checks are. Of course people who dislike any remotely "challenging" will complain it was too hard. The issue has been how much this game goes out of its way to cater towards that mindset. When players are constantly held up as being absolutely amazing, the cold hard slap of reality doesn't exactly warm them up. If the game wasn't so easy in 90% of its content, you'd start seeing less of this mentality.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

It's not asking for too much, but the implication seems to be your group can be brain dead and clear 24 player raids when that has been demonstrably untrue in the past. And Deathgaze Hollow's enrage worked fine because it was the first boss of the raid, not three fights in when you've already invested a good chunk of time.

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For the most part, your group can lack said brain cells. Provided you have a handful of decent players, they can pretty much carry everyone else in almost every single 24 man, trial or what have you.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Who says we don't agree? I loved having a damage meter, too. What I didn't love was running through random on-level Deadmines with a jerk decked out in heirlooms spamming the meters after every boss fight and complaining about how he's carrying the group through all 20 seconds of it. Maybe it's because I love to level alts, but that wasn't a one-off experience. I saw it all the time. I'm just saying that the current don't-ask-don't-tell policy is just fine. If you want to have your damage meter, you can have it, but don't advertise it unless it's with your FC in Discord.

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I saw it all the time too, and all it was was some sad fool not understanding how to use a meter - and not getting that wonky scaling at low levels usually meant meters were close tomeaningless anyway. I'd laugh at and block those people tbh.

I don't like the don't ask don't tell thing at all, is my point. I'm personally not comfortable taking the risk that SE could someday change their stance the other way and start banning people even if they don't mention it. Maybe it's paranoia, but I don't like the idea of breaking the ToS even if I don't think this should even be against the ToS to begin with. If it weren't for that, I'd be quietly parsing away already.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I saw it all the time too, and all it was was some sad fool not understanding how to use a meter - and not getting that wonky scaling at low levels usually meant meters were close tomeaningless anyway. I'd laugh at and block those people tbh.

I don't like the don't ask don't tell thing at all, is my point. I'm personally not comfortable taking the risk that SE could someday change their stance the other way and start banning people even if they don't mention it. Maybe it's paranoia, but I don't like the idea of breaking the ToS even if I don't think this should even be against the ToS to begin with. If it weren't for that, I'd be quietly parsing away already.

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First they'd have to update the client to install what amounts to malware, in order to search your pc for software that they don't want. They won't ever do this, because it's terrible and messes things up.

If you want players to improve their skill (without requiring a dps meter per se) then there's a few things the devs would have to do, some of it being glossed over due to us being in the 3rd xpac. It used to be in ARR and some of HW that dungeons would 'teach' you certain things. If you were a tank and did stone vigil, you needed to be pretty good about using your CDs because mobs hit hard. It required a bit more coop between players to focus down targets too. It wasnt anything that couldnt be done, but it was challanging enough that you had to actually think about what you were doing. Now we have an issue where people level to fast, are way overgeared, so there is no challange. You can have a tank whos knows nothing about tanking go through that and spam 1 or 2 skills and be ok. It's that easy. To correct that, they would need to lower the ilvl upper limit so you are are not as strong. They would have to also start adapting mobs so that mass pulling without consideration will wipe you. This means you need to focus down targets or not mass pull into a target that possibly gets buffs when there are more than certain amount of enemies nearby.

They need to be also pushing Savage and EX mechanics into dungeons. Bosses should have quicker hard enrages that force players to push their dps.

Lastly incentive players who do the highest damage or effective healing or something. Top 3 players get bonus gil/exp/tomes etc. This will likely end up being a DPS who gets that bonus but thats fine since tanks and healers typically queue faster as is. The point is they need to start pushing up the skill floor as things go higher at a much quicker rate and up the difficulty of any MSQ dungeon so it stays relevant no matter your level and gear. Do this and make slight adjustments to Savage and EX and youll start seeing more people be able to try and accomplish that content. When everyone plays better, the whole community benefits.

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I think Ghostcrawler put it best: If you ask people to raise to a challenge, most will try a few times and then quit instead of actually working on improving themselves.

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Good ol Ghostie thought a lot of things in his time, some of them were solid and understandable, but most of them gave the world Cataclysm.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

For a lot of people, sure, I agree. Now I'd say aurum Vale isnt too bad, but I've also invested 3000 hours into this game and have progged ultimate fights as well as do savage content. But I remember my first run of bardams mettle, or Aurum Vale, shit was rough, I could barely keep up. I kept with it because I like a challenge though (clearly, right?)

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That's misconception.

Bardams Mettle wasn't hard. The only two reason that it "felt" hard because of two things: skill and gears. I remember that speed bum at the beginning of SB inside Bardams too, but that's because:

- A lot of people were trying new roles in a new expansion, as well as adjusting to new change in their class. Also the "hardcore" people stick with their static early on in order to reach max level quicker leading to a reduced number of skill players in the pool. All of this combines always make contents "feel" harder at the beginning of an expansion.
- Gears: the main culprit of why Bardam felt like a jump in "difficulty" is because of the Shire gears. "New" players were given a set for free, which over geared them for the first 2 story dungeon, but Bardam is where it evened/fall behind. This is most noticeable with tank, and adding the fact that most people in Shire Gear are new to the classes and/or potion jump, you get a fairly potent combination of making things harder than they actually are. I had to heal a tank in Castrum Abania one (the last story dungeon in SB) who was in full lvl60 crafted gears. It was harder to keep him alive than healing freaking omega.

Dungeons has consistently becoming easier and repeatly, that's a fact. Even by the end of 2.0 you could still see people wiping in Stone vigil or AV. I still remembered sleep/fluid aura were still used in order to salvage a pull. These days the only struggle is at the first few weeks for reasons mentioned above, after that you hardly see any a party struggle any more unless they are "really" bad. And CC skills has been neglected to extinctions

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Well sure, *now* they're all much easier. Take that same situation when the fight was relevant and I doubt your group would've made it.

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Are you trying to insinuate the Alliance raids were hard when they were relevant? I've cleared Weeping, Dun, Rabanastre, Ridorana, and Orbonne Day 1, with the only wipes being to none of the Alliance knowing the mechanics (since we're all fresh). None of these raids were difficult - they just weren't LotA/ST faceroll-easy.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Are you trying to insinuate the Alliance raids were hard when they were relevant? I've cleared Weeping, Dun, Rabanastre, Ridorana, and Orbonne Day 1, with the only wipes being to none of the Alliance knowing the mechanics (since we're all fresh). None of these raids were difficult - they just weren't LotA/ST faceroll-easy.

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I'm speculating that had the scenario the poster described happened when they were relevant, they likely wouldn't have made the DPS check since they "just barely" made it post ShB launch. I'm saying nothing about these raids being hard or not, just that I feel their difficulty is tuned right for what they are.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

That's misconception.

Bardams Mettle wasn't hard. The only two reason that it "felt" hard because of two things: skill and gears.

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But isnt this the crux of difficulty? Essentially challenge will always boil down to limitations on skills/gear in relation to the content and how you overcome those challenges. Now how they up the difficult can vary, such as the cheap way is to just triple a monsters HP and Defense and tell you to 'kill it', but that only ends up padding the content. But difficulty is gonna be an issue of what you have on hand. So it's kinda wierd to say "It feels hard, but really wasnt cause we didnt have the max level gear or higher level stats and therefore were facing a challange that was adequate for the limitations we had." I feel this would be akin to saying Bahamut in synced CoBS isnt really challenging simply because we dont have our level 80 skills and gear. It's also saying the final boss of a game is not 'really all that hard' when you can just put in a cheat code and get godlike stats. The content isnt designed around being over leveled/geared, and the challenge is appropriate in that regards.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I remember that speed bum at the beginning of SB inside Bardams too, but that's because:

- A lot of people were trying new roles in a new expansion, as well as adjusting to new change in their class. Also the "hardcore" people stick with their static early on in order to reach max level quicker leading to a reduced number of skill players in the pool. All of this combines always make contents "feel" harder at the beginning of an expansion.

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I would say the adjustment makes more sense at the lvl 60-63 dungeons, but BM is a lvl 65 dungeon smack dab in the middle of the xpac. Most people wouldve been more adjusted by that point. Also the hardcore static people stick together is a lot less a thing. Yes some of them will level together but most people at that point in the xpac were not part of solid statics - including players who did Alexander and as result were doing the content on their own term and time. Only the more hardcore statics looking for world first typically ran together because they had a roadmap planned out to get to max asap and gear up so when savage drops they can jump in immediately. Your point also argues that Savage Raiders were carrying non raiders through that content because non raiders are bad, rather than the content being difficult for the level/gear available at the time.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

- Gears: the main culprit of why Bardam felt like a jump in "difficulty" is because of the Shire gears. "New" players were given a set for free, which over geared them for the first 2 story dungeon, but Bardam is where it evened/fall behind. This is most noticeable with tank, and adding the fact that most people in Shire Gear are new to the classes and/or potion jump, you get a fairly potent combination of making things harder than they actually are. I had to heal a tank in Castrum Abania one (the last story dungeon in SB) who was in full lvl60 crafted gears. It was harder to keep him alive than healing freaking omega.

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This is a problem with Jump potions in general. they shouldnt have awarded 260 gear. 240 or 250 wouldve been more appropriate. That being said, new players also would not have proper understanding of mechanics, classes, or other things and would in hat sense struggle a bit in newer content. Yes over gearing would make those 70 dungeons easier, but not so easy that 75 BM wouldve been a spike. Remember that gear doesnt fall off a steep cliff. You started getting 276 gear in BM. Thats only 6 ilvls above the maximum HW gear. It is better, but not so substantially better that it would justify a sudden spike in difficulty. Beyond that, youre over estimating how many 'new players' there were too. Pretty sure most of the player base were semi or fully active by SB so there werent that many people with jump potions and using 270 gear and not knowing their class that BM would be difficult from that.

BM was a harder dungeon because it was a harder dungeon from skill limitations and stat limitations. Things at that level were hitting harder, and you didnt have a full kit. People had to pull smaller and be a bit more creative. As gearing got better, it became easier cause people were out gearing it. For what it was intended for, it had a decent difficulty to it.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Dungeons has consistently becoming easier and repeatly, that's a fact. Even by the end of 2.0 you could still see people wiping in Stone vigil or AV. I still remembered sleep/fluid aura were still used in order to salvage a pull. These days the only struggle is at the first few weeks for reasons mentioned above, after that you hardly see any a party struggle any more unless they are "really" bad. And CC skills has been neglected to extinctions

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I dont think its a fact as an opinion. There is nuance here and I agree with some bits of it. Dungeons have changed and become more refined over time in certain ways. Stone vigil is hard at the end of ARR due to quite a few factors. It's not hard now because of changes in lower level content and overgearing. By the time you get to it, youre pretty much overleveled and geared. As a result in some degree dungeons are easier. This doesnt get any better as dungeons are streamlined in such a fashion where you just mass pull boss to boss almost and CC and management be damned. However bosses themselves have become more complex, and increased in difficulty. In ARR, bosses had maybe 1 mechanic you had to understand and the rest was tank and spank. It's not that way currently.

Furthermore, bad dungeon design was weeded out as well - design that made a dungeon more difficult due to cheesy factors than anything. As a point, CC was a double edged sword. If you design mobs that need to be CCed you need more in group coordination. And with people so spam happy on AoEs. Keeping a mob slept is almost a moot point. This also creates a situation where content becomes harder unless you have a certain class/role. So CC has to be on healer or Tanks role actions primarily because theyll be required, unless you just give it to everyone, and then its an issue of balance and having to much available CC on hand in things like 8 mans.

This being said, they could increase difficult by punishing mass pulling and forcing more tactical play. As I mentioned, this would be things like incorporating mobs that become stronger the more minions are around, or changing how CC operates where sleep doesnt break on any damage, but if they lose a % of their max HP. This allows for tanks to reposition mobs away from a slept target without them getting woken up by spam happy dps or tanks or healers. More enemies need interrupted skills, either with interject or stun and failing to do so would make things substantially harder. Also enemies get to resist CC faster, but for shorter duration. So more CC would be useful. It also means giving mobs Raid mechanics. Stack markers, Tank busters, Raid Busters, blind markers, etc. Enemies that do more damage the lower HP they get, enemies that need to be focused down, enemies that spam AoEs non stop. Enemies that pull you out of group and pop a quick buster, so if youre a squishy healer or DPS, youre gonna die if you are rushing along foolishly. Etc. Incorporating these mechanics on regular trash mobs and introducing new mechanics on bosses would go a long way to helping improve the player base skill floor. They do this in places like HoH to some extent, where things like the Gryphon in the mid floors has a hard enrage that will about wipe your group if you let it happen. This kind of mechanics need to be more incorporated into dungeons. You can keep dungeons the same length by cutting down the amount of mobs you have to fight.

This would require a lot of retooling of future dungeons because this requires players to change how they play. Most players have found it's simply easier to big pull and AoE things down. You have to craft dungeons to mitigate against that and introduce nuance. Not that you cant have mass pull, but create a flow where some areas you mass pull, some areas you move more cautiously. Mind you, the changes I proposed would be things that even ARR never incorporated.

i think your going off topic in your discussions.
your talking about how to teach people to do their class and how content should be,instead of should dps meter be allowed or banned.
its starting to feel like you are more looking how to punish people rather then help and teach.
dungeons should be challenging at their level limit at that time and as time goes on they get easier to do(its became kind of a fact with old content),but as this debate goes on its feels to me that it became more on how to punish rather then a true solution to help people.

i feel that a dps meter will only contribute more to toxicity rather then help.
u keep saying u want more people to do their job and to help them improve with said roles but at the same time it feels like you just want an instrument to legitimate insults claims and kicks.
some jobs already claim to have party issues in certain content and that they suffer from discrimination,having a dps meter in party might aggravate the situation to even further lengths.
i'm sure you guys had your fill of bad players not doing their part and blaming you for it,but currently such tool will only increase toxicity and sadly as human nature shown most people will prefer to just use that meter to justify rude behavior.

im sure you guys are not like that but i dont believe most people will actually use dps meter as a tool for learning and improvement.
random people party will always be an issue ,you might get stuck with people who don't know the mechs to the dungeons or don't know the full extend of their jobs and just maybe you find a decent group to pull said trial.
if you wanted to pick your members just do a run with your friends or FC, but if u going to be at a party with random people expect those kinda stuff and just remain calm. be nice and offer to help them and explain to them politely how to improve otherwise tell them they cant continue like this and do a vote kick and if they truly disturb the run most party members will agree.