You pull you tank question.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

If you have been asked as per the example I gave, to not make the rest of the groups experience worse/harder/painful/unfun pick and adjective, and you intentionally do it anyway, for you own personal benefit at the cost of others, that's hawkish behaviour. Now the rest of hawk and dove plays out the way everyone else says, vote kick the problem person, aka doves eventually chasing out hawks. However I was suggesting tit for tat as a far quicker way of dealing with the problem, it causes no harm to the rest of the group only the person that instigates suffers, they leave on their own or stop behaving in such a way, the party doesn't have to wait as long to be rid of the behaviour.

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Okay, what's the personal benefit?

EDIT:
And what's the collective problem, now that I think about it more?

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Originally Posted by Malthir

So by your genius logic .

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The issue is that he doesn't have logic. He entirely missed the point of the exercise. There are times in PvE content where adds will spawn and default attack whoever is nearby/highest in enmity immediately which can be a dps or healer and in those instances, you grab aggro off the support members. However, when the party is naturally grouped, just because you have the ability to target an enemy, doesn't mean that you take it as a DPS. It doesn't matter if you can aoe to kill an add pack, it doesn't matter what add is within range for you to attack, you only attack a target that the tank has directly aggro'd. It is a failure as a DPS to not attack the same target as a tank when possible. The exercise specifically has a tank that "could" be doing aoe, but isn't. And in that circumstance, it is considered failure by the DPS to not single target, not a failure of the tank to aoe. Square Enix is not teaching players to clear content as fast as possible, it is teaching them to stay behind the tank when possible.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

support members

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Support members?

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Support members?

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You need a dictionary for any terms that don't involve attacking people?

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

You need a dictionary for any terms that don't involve attacking people?

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So none of the jobs in the MMO FF14?

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Originally Posted by Malthir

I'm guessing you never played a Drk when you said you tanked. In the current state of Drks, in a expert. if my mits are on CD and the healer isn't very good (aka the reason we are not W2W pulling) Then I will die from a second group coming into the fight. So yeah I'll just let you get hit till I've got a couple of CD's I can use to keep me alive then I'll pick them up.

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How often has this actually happened tho? DRK was the second job I levelled in DT and I didn't have a single issue double pulling as a DRK (and it's more fun than on GNB imo)

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Originally Posted by Malthir

Now if we are W2W pulling from the get go it's a whole different story, my mit will be used on the whole group at once, our DPS burst will be used on all at once so overall I'll take alot less damage than if you add a pack to the fight mid way through. See the difference.

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That's kinda the point though. Why wouldn't you be wall pulling from the start? It uses less mitigation tools, DPS are more likely to actually use their burst and cooldown abilities (sorry the leylines don't go down for single packs), and it stretches healer resources less. This all on top of just being faster.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Support members?

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Honestly ignore that guy, he thinks everybody who isn't him is a peon, so it's no surprise he'd call everyone else 'support.' At least Malthir seems intelligent and reasonable, though I disagree with their conclusions.

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

At least Malthir seems intelligent and reasonable.

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Oh I know for a fact Malthir is a smart human being from the points they've brought up in other topics. In this particular one topic though, I'm convinced, after multiple attempts to get them to explain themselves in a rational manner, they are just mathematically wrong and letting their emotions cloud their judgment.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Oh I know for a fact Malthir is an intelligent human being from the points he's brought up in other topics. In this particular one topic though, I'm convinced after multiple attempts to get them to explain themselves in a rational manner, he's just mathematically and wrong letting their emotions cloud their judgment.

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Yeah, though it's good to acknowledge that your interlocutor is reasonable, but coming to a conclusion you find fault in. Makes for better conversations imo!

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

So none of the jobs in in the MMO FF14?

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*rubs forehead*

You only used half a full sentence, so I'm going to spell this out instead of taking the response in the worst interpretation that I could.

Support member =/ Support Role

Role = reference to the kit of abilities available to a player. A Damage Role is a kit of abilities primary focused on dealing damage. A Support Role is a kit of abilities primary focused on helping others.

Member = The player themselves, which means any adjective is a reference to the primary objective/purpose of said player at a given time. A supporting player/member of a party is any person that is helping another person. They are not the initating instance of a mission/objective. If a Tank Role starts to attack an enemy first, any secondary person that is aiding that, is supporting them, regardless of the Role. An example would be you, as the WoL, summoning the Scions. They are healers, dps, and tank roles, but all are considering supporting you in a fight because you were the one who initiated it. This usage of support is relevant to perspective. Another example:

Add 1 is being attacked by the Tank.
Add 2 is attacking a Healer Role.
Healer Role begins to attack Add 2.
A Damage Role begins to attack Add 2. <- Damage Role is a supporting member to the Healer Role. Healer Role initiated attacking Add 2.
Add 3 spawns and begins to attack Damage Role.
Healer starts to heal the Damage Role. <- Healer Role is a supporting member to the Damage Role. Damage Role initiated (via aggro range) a confrontation with Add 3.

You can have two players with different Roles considered a support member at the same time.

From a Tank PoV, because they initiate 95-100% of the engagements inside of a given content, they will refer to Damage Roles and Healer Roles as supporting members in general because the default plan is not for them to making their own objectives throughout the instance repeatedly. Supporting the Tank Role is their primary objective, and supporting the other roles as situations come up are secondary objectives.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

*rubs forehead*

You only used half a full sentence, so I'm going to spell this out instead of taking the response in the worst interpretation that I could.

Support member =/ Support Role

Role = reference to the kit of abilities available to a player. A Damage Role is a kit of abilities primary focused on dealing damage. A Support Role is a kit of abilities primary focused on helping others.

Member = The player themselves, which means any adjective is a reference to the primary objective/purpose of said player at a given time. A supporting player/member of a party is any person that is helping another person. They are not the initating instance of a mission/objective. If a Tank Role starts to attack an enemy first, any secondary person that is aiding that, is supporting them, regardless of the Role. An example would be you, as the WoL, summoning the Scions. They are healers, dps, and tank roles, but all are considering supporting you in a fight because you were the one who initiated it. This usage of support is relevant to perspective. Another example:

Add 1 is being attacked by the Tank.
Add 2 is attacking a Healer Role.
Healer Role begins to attack Add 2.
A Damage Role begins to attack Add 2. <- Damage Role is a supporting member to the Healer Role. Healer Role initiated attacking Add 2.
Add 3 spawns and begins to attack Damage Role.
Healer starts to heal the Damage Role. <- Healer Role is a supporting member to the Damage Role. Damage Role initiated (via aggro range) a confrontation with Add 3.

You can have two players with different Roles considered a support member at the same time.

From a Tank PoV, because they initiate 95-100% of the engagements inside of a given content, they will refer to Damage Roles and Healer Roles as supporting members in general because the default plan is not for them to making their own objectives throughout the instance repeatedly. Supporting the Tank Role is their primary objective, and supporting the other roles as situations come up are secondary objectives.

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Okay, just going to ignore you after this, but in FF14 terms tanks and healers are the support roles. Not the DPS. Putting you on ignore now.