SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

No its not impossible for blue mage to be in content while breaking most of the rules of FFXIV

---

Wut?

You don't have to "Break most of the rules of FFXIV" to make Blue Mage work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

Its that The developers of FFXIV do not want to mix in these ideas, or complex implementations into their streamlined FFXIV design process for jobs.

---

Yes, because they wanted low effort implementation. Because they wanted Limited Jobs. Because they're afraid that anything different is somehow wrong and will be disliked by players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

They fundamentally want all jobs to be very similar in skill aquisition and availability.

---

And there have been numerous suggestions on how Blue Mage can have similar skill acquisition and availability to other jobs. With the extra stuff being fluff just like how base ARR classes have their own unique Hunting Logs, which aren't mandatory and haven't been replicated on any new jobs since.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

They dont want to lock players out based on what skills they have available.

---

Then simply don't design mandatory skills and stick them behind RNG walls

As I've mentioned, like half of BLU's current "Kit" is easy to get or just given to you directly by Whalaqee Totems.

There's no reason why the other half had to be designed as skills with low learn chances from dungeons/trials.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

they dont want hybrids in the overall battle system.

---

Then don't make BLU a hybrid. Make it a DPS like its listed as. Like it plays as (Outside some lulzy "All BLU" parties... But that doesn't make them Tanks/Healers any more than when people did all WAR runs makes WAR a Tank/Healer/DPS hybrid job...)

I'm honestly unsure which iteration of BLU that people keep referring to as a "Hybrid" since, from my memory, the notable BLU's from previous games were just basically Black Mages that had some situationally powerful damage spells and debuffs. Oh, with White Wind and Might Guard (Which was simply AoE buffs like Protect/Shell rather than a "Tank Stance") tacked on. I'm remembering stuff like Quistis, Quina, Kimahri, FFV, FFVI...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

They dont want to have different rule sets for abilities in duty finder vs outside of duty finder

---

They don't really need to either. Most of the issues are insta-kill effects. Which are immuned by some enemies outside of DF as well as inside.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

How do i know this? because much of these things existed before in FFXIV, and they have gone out of their way to strip them from FFXIV, and strealine the overall design processes. They specifically gutted these things from the game already, or chose not to add/develop around these limitations.

They used to have cross job abilities, and people who leveled other jobs had better dps/tank/healing abilities, instead of adding a check, they made the role system.

---

Cross class skills were an inherently bad design though. Since it meant that in order to play X class effectively, you also needed to level up classes A, B and C.

Which is dumb. Leveling up multiple jobs should be a choice, not mandatory to make the 1 job you want to play functional due to having key skills accessed via doing this.

Many players gave feedback about how they disliked this, which is why they removed it.

It's not at all comparable to a properly designed BLU, since it's possible to make it so that a BLU doesn't have to do anything different to other classes in order to get its mandatory skills. Especially since, all jobs have precedent for needing to complete their job quests (With its peak being during HW where every new skill came via job quest. Whereas in SB, it's merely the capstone level 70 skill locked behind the final job quest)

You can make the additional collecting non-mandatory. Thus being side content just like a Limited Job would be in its entirety, thus taking up exactly the same resources as making said content for a Limited Job would need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

Short version, its not that its impossible to make blue mage fit, its that the paradigm of what they want jobs to be for 4=8 man content does not fit what blue mage is. They dont want to do any of the things you suggested. If they decide blue mage must fit into regular parties, they will make it as streamlined and uniform as every other job, because thats what they expect from anything going into regular content.

---

Frankly this is baloney.

There's nothing about BLU that doesn't fit the paradigm of their holy trinity, outside what they explicitly designed to force BLU into this weird "Hybrid" job (At the cost of also disgracing the essence of some iconic Blue Magic spells. Like Might Guard has been a source of applying Protect and Shell (/Barrier and MBarrier) to allies in all Final Fantasy games except XI.)

What next, Red Mage has to be limited because it's (Actually) a Hybrid job in previous iterations of the game? Or could it be that there is a functional way to include a DPS job that has a heal skill (Which is literally all that BLU has traditionally been outside of XI)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

Simplified grouping (all skills come from leveling, or job quests, at the appropriate levels, no skill checks, or lockouts)

---

Which, as noted, is not impossible to design for BLU at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

Clear Role (every one is either tank/dps/healer and is noticeably defecient in every other role)

---

Again, outside what they've specifically and arbitrarily decided to do with BLU (Mostly because they were being designed as a "Solo Job" and for "BLU only parties" so they made Might Guard into some BS Tank Stance), BLU is easy to fit into a clear role.

Make it supportive DPS just like how SMN currently exists. How RDM currently exists. How BRD currently exists. How DNC is very likely to exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

Follows basic action rules(CC on limited time frames {usuually 30 secs} limited unique effects per job etc)

---

Again, not particularly difficult to apply to BLU. Outside of what they specifically designed for its current state.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

No weird or unbalanced skills for groups (self destruct/white wind/peculiar light/needles/% health skills, gambling skills)

---

Again, a plethora of ways to mitigate these effects. Such as aforementioned "Duty Set" of skills. Or balancing them in a way that makes them not broken (White Wind having a CD for example, Peculiar Light being brought down to only 10% vulnerability like Contagion)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

Once they decided that

---

This is the crux of the matter right here.

All of the problems with BLU, have been intentionally designed.

These problems aren't inherent in BLU as a job. Not all possible iterations of BLU have core rotational skills locked behind 0.1% learn rate EX Trial bosses. Not all possible iterations of BLU have a BS Tank Stance made out of what has traditionally been an AoE team buff (Akin to the likes of Troubadour on BRD). Not all possible iteration of BLU have White Wind healing for as much as it does with no CD.

Everything that is being seen as a barrier behind BLU being a normal job, was decided to be a thing by the devs.

It's literally comparable to slashing the tyres on your car and then calling your boss up and saying that you can't make it into work because someone slashed your tyres.

Like, sure, in that example, you're stuck because your car is unusable because the tyres are slashed. But if you didn't slash them in the first place you wouldn't have that problem.

@kalise


you are missing my main point.



Its not that its impossible, its that they dont want those type of things in ffxiv duty finder content.



they dont want to build in a system that checks peoples skills and rejects them if they dont have them. They could have done that before, and they instead chose to build the skills they wanted players to have into the role system, which was, at the time way more work, and a way more radical change.



They want a streamlined simplified play structure for duty finder. Every role has to be predicatable and easy to queue for. Level, and ILevel is the only thing they want players to have to worry about and manage for duty finder content.



Like i said, its not that its impossible, they dont want to do it. Its against their design plan for duty finder and jobs. Its like you asking apple to make a square edged iphone. They arent going to do it simply because they dont feel rounded edges are how iphones are supposed to be.


They will only put blue mage in duty finder if they streamline skill aquisition such that it is based on level and job quests. Which goes against the most signature aspect of blue mage. You may think its not a big deal and they should just build around it, but they think it pollutes the purpose and design of duty finder.


also you are extremely downplaying how much having weird situational/luckbased/status skills are a part of the identity of blue mage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

also you are extremely downplaying how much having weird situational/luckbased/status skills are a part of the identity of blue mage.

---

Do you just not read the replies we give you on other thread, BLU has the most flexible identity of any job, lets put your criteria to the test.

FFV- During the main game revolved around doing damage with aero, and heavy damage with 1k needles in the areas it was relevant. End Game it revolved around buffing the party and supporting them with transfusion. Missle and Doom and roulette existed on BLU, they weren't part of its identity.

FFVI- You mostly just used strago as a BLM due to his high magic stat and because of how broken magic is in that game. Again the rng and situational abilities exist, but they don't define his BLU, if anything aqua breath, tsunami and quasar and grand delta define it more, as well as its Support, with mighty and white wind.

FFVII- Blue magic is essentially better damaging magic materia for most of FFVII, Beta, Trine, Magic Breath, Matra Magic are all just amazing for playing the game with, tonne of damage and enemy skill doesn't change stats. Shadow Flare and Pandora's box are powerful end game skills too. They also have strongsupport with mighty guard.

FFVIII- Limit Break- Nuff Said

FFXI- Powerful Support Skills as well as amazing earth and wind damage.

FFX- Bad, Moving on

FFXI- Hybrid Role of weirdness

Bravely Default- Vampire, Powerful physical attacker, with strong debuffing skills making it a great support damage dealer on a physical team

Bravely Second- Catmancer, Very powerful Physical attacker, who could also debuff, making it just all round a great heavy hitter and support

I could go on, but my point is there. So it seems its most consistent, "identity" as it were is being a support dps by this interpretation? Also useful to note, BLU isn't the only class to have rng and situational skills btw, BLM and WHM have learned plenty of these through the games they're in, like warp, death, tornado, slow, sleep, bezerk, list goes on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

you are missing my main point.

Its not that its impossible, its that they dont want those type of things in ffxiv duty finder content.

they dont want to build in a system that checks peoples skills and rejects them if they dont have them. They could have done that before, and they instead chose to build the skills they wanted players to have into the role system, which was, at the time way more work, and a way more radical change.

They want a streamlined simplified play structure for duty finder. Every role has to be predicatable and easy to queue for. Level, and ILevel is the only thing they want players to have to worry about and manage for duty finder content.

They will only put blue mage in duty finder if they streamline skill aquisition such that it is based on level and job quests. Which goes against the most signature aspect of blue mage. You may think its not a big deal and they should just build around it, but they think it pollutes the purpose and design of duty finder.

also you are extremely downplaying how much having weird situational/luckbased/status skills are a part of the identity of blue mage.

---

You're the one missing the point.

They can easily create a BLU friendly system for ensuring that players obtain the relevant skills needed to perform in DF:

They can make Job Quests make you go fight a specific enemy that teaches you a spell. Just like exists currently in the game (The quest where you become a Blue Mage has your character fight a squid and learn Water Cannon)

They can make Job Quests reward you with a Whalaqee Totem which teaches you a spell. This is a lore friendly way to gain a spell as a reward for a quest and is currently used in the game (In addition to being used in VIII where Quistis would learn her Blue Magic via consumables and didn't need to actually fight anything)

They can make Job Quests tell you to go learn a certain spell from particular enemies before letting you pick up the quest. Just like exists currently in the game (Just make these skills easy to learn and they become painless ways to BLU-Gate things)

Then they can create a system that utilizes the fact that BLU can save multiple different sets of abilities to swap between in order to fashion a "Duty Set" which they balance for content, that is at the very least, built around the skills that are given through Job Quests (In whatever form their particular acquisition takes)

This allows them to not have to worry about checking players skills, nor about having to worry about people going out of their way to farm necessary skills, and simply design the core BLU experience in a similar fashion to other jobs.

With the rest of BLU being either fluff that is restricted from actual content (Such as RNG skills, insta-kills, suicide skills etc) and thus relegated to stuff like overworld, unsync'd old content and Masked Carnivale. Or it could be some limited way of customizing the "Duty Set" for flavour and potentially even some min/max capacity based on team composition (Such as using a lower potency Piercing or Slashing skill instead of a Magical one to benefit from Piercing/Slashing debuffs and/or physical damage buffs like Embolden/Brotherhood) - With the limitation being only able to swap similar skills (I.e. Single Target Nuke can only be swapped for other Single Target Nukes)

Also, weird situational/luck based/status skills aren't a major part of the identity of Blue Mage. At least not when actually using them in relevant battles. They're fun for memeing around but if you were actually bringing a Blue Mage to your party to beat hidden bosses or progress through the story, you rarely relied on these skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Do you just not read the replies we give you on other thread, BLU has the most flexible identity of any job, lets put your criteria to the test.

FFV- During the main game revolved around doing damage with aero, and heavy damage with 1k needles in the areas it was relevant. End Game it revolved around buffing the party and supporting them with transfusion. Missle and Doom and roulette existed on BLU, they weren't part of its identity.

FFVI- You mostly just used strago as a BLM due to his high magic stat and because of how broken magic is in that game. Again the rng and situational abilities exist, but they don't define his BLU, if anything aqua breath, tsunami and quasar and grand delta define it more, as well as its Support, with mighty and white wind.

FFVII- Blue magic is essentially better damaging magic materia for most of FFVII, Beta, Trine, Magic Breath, Matra Magic are all just amazing for playing the game with, tonne of damage and enemy skill doesn't change stats. Shadow Flare and Pandora's box are powerful end game skills too. They also have strongsupport with mighty guard.

FFVIII- Limit Break- Nuff Said

FFXI- Powerful Support Skills as well as amazing earth and wind damage.

FFX- Bad, Moving on

FFXI- Hybrid Role of weirdness

---

you are taking like 4 skills out lists of 20 skills and saying oh, these other skills arent important, you can play without them. if 50-75% of the skills are this way, it probably has something to do with the jobs identity.
situational/random/status skills vs other
ffv 20/30
ffvi 19/24 lore
ffvii 11/24
ffviii 8/16
ff9 19/24

acting like situational/random/status is a small part of blu mage historically is just not accurate. Yes other jobs get some of this, but its generally not a major part thier spell lists.

ff11 has the least random elements, but one of the most situational, via elemental and weapon weaknesses and status weakness, and self magic bursts. Good blu mages had different loadouts for every situation, and access to more status control than anyone else.


yea, they could make blue mage something totally new, but lets not pretend it has not been designed a certain way most of the time. And lets not act like the ffxiv skill list isnt inline with that. I'll also point out most of the skills that arent siituational are elemental, meant to target enemies weaknesses, which ffxiv goes out of thier way to give blu mage, and put it the carnivale.

you can hate limited jobs, but you cant act like blu mage in ffxiv isnt in line with blue magic's main identity, and you cant act like most of that identity is not condusive to ffxiv general hi end game design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

You're the one missing the point.

They can easily create a BLU friendly system for ensuring that players obtain the relevant skills needed to perform in DF:

They can make Job Quests make you go fight a specific enemy that teaches you a spell. Just like exists currently in the game (The quest where you become a Blue Mage has your character fight a squid and learn Water Cannon)

They can make Job Quests reward you with a Whalaqee Totem which teaches you a spell. This is a lore friendly way to gain a spell as a reward for a quest and is currently used in the game (In addition to being used in VIII where Quistis would learn her Blue Magic via consumables and didn't need to actually fight anything)

They can make Job Quests tell you to go learn a certain spell from particular enemies before letting you pick up the quest. Just like exists currently in the game (Just make these skills easy to learn and they become painless ways to BLU-Gate things)

Then they can create a system that utilizes the fact that BLU can save multiple different sets of abilities to swap between in order to fashion a "Duty Set" which t

Also, weird situational/luck based/status skills aren't a major part of the identity of Blue Mage. At least not when actually using them in relevant battles. They're fun for memeing around but if you were actually bringing a Blue Mage to your party to beat hidden bosses or progress through the story, you rarely relied on these skills.

---

either your skill lists will be tiny, or your job quests will be extremely long. but that not the biggest thing.

the point is ffxiv already faced this issue and have already given thier answer for these problems. I say they will not do these things because they already did not do them in the past,and spent a lot of time and energy making it how it is now.

They have no desire to do it that way.

cross job roles presented all the same problems, and they didnt do anything like you are suggesting, even though players suggested some of the exact same solutions.

They are not willing to do these things for normal jobs/content.


and lastly, they are a major part of blu mage, my post on top of this talks about it, and its usually some of the best abilities for blue mage. Gravity attacks are huge in many ff games, especially later on. Elemental weakness/status weakness is a major part of making many fights easy, and in some ffs doable. Abilities based on numbers are usually some of the most powerful abilities you have as a blu mage. exploiting your hp is key to seeing some of the big numbers.

like i said above, if 50%+ of your skill list falls into that category, its probably a part of your job identity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

either your skill lists will be tiny, or your job quests will be extremely long. but that not the biggest thing.

---

Not necessarily.

Literally, you can get up to 3+ skills per job quest (One required to obtain the quest. One from beating an enemy during the quest (Maybe more, either due to fighting more than 1 enemy or maybe an enemy will teach you more than 1 skill like how Chimera/Azulmagia can teach you both Ram's Voice and Dragon's Voice) and one from the reward)

Also, you only need 24 total job skills over levels 1-70. Just like every other job in the game. Take away the typical cap stone job quest skills (50, 60, 70) and that's 21. Take away the HW levels that all jobs get one from the reward that's 17. Take away the one you learn when getting the job. That leaves you with 16 skills to put into the game.

With job quests at level 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 63, 65, 68, 70. You have 19 total job quests to fit in 23 ability gains. Even more in ShB as I'm sure that they'll be trying to keep jobs to 24 skills even at level 80 (So, say they have similar spacing of quests to ShB so that would be 23 job quests for 23 abilities...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

the point is ffxiv already faced this issue and have already given thier answer for these problems. I say they will not do these things because they already did not do them in the past,and spent a lot of time and energy making it how it is now.

---

I can say the EXACTLY the same thing about jobs as a whole. "Oh they've done jobs like this already, they wouldn't possibly add in a 'Limited Job'!"

They can change things. Especially if something is improved by the changes. Like they changed cross-class skills because people hated it because it didn't do anything other than punish people who didn't spend time leveling up classes they didn't care to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

They are not willing to do these things for normal jobs/content.

---

Just because they haven't how do you know they're not?

Have you sat in on their meetings and heard them going "Well, we're not willing to do anything like this ever!"

Or are you just speculating because of a previous iteration of the job system that sucked and was changed because people disliked it which is in no way similar to... Designing a job more like every other job in the game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

lastly, they are a major part of blu mage, my post on top of this talks about it, and its usually some of the best abilities for blue mage. Gravity attacks are huge in many ff games, especially later on. Elemental weakness/status weakness is a major part of making many fights easy, and in some ffs doable. Abilities based on numbers are usually some of the most powerful abilities you have as a blu mage. exploiting your hp is key to seeing some of the big numbers.

---

They are not a major part of Blue Mage.

Gravity has been Black Magic in a number of games. Elemental weaknesses are exploited by Black Mages and Summoners and not just Blue Mages.

Much of Blue Mage has been just using high damage spells, not unlike a Black Mage or Summoner would. Just with their inherent ability to play with various statistics in order to maximize damage (Such as levels to make things like Goblin Punch more powerful... Or time consuming things like catching Frogs/walking to make Frog Drop/Traveler deal more damage)

Nothing about them has to be the likes of Doom/Roulette/Self Destruct. Many of their skills would work just fine as standard skills in FFXIV, due to the nature of the setting (Just like how Stone, Water and Aero became White Magic instead of Black/Blue Magic. Or about how BLM can use Fire on Fire Sprites and deal damage). In fact, a lot of their skills in some iterations (Such as V, VIII and X) are exactly that, just standard damage skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

you can hate limited jobs, but you cant act like blu mage in ffxiv isnt in line with blue magic's main identity, and you cant act like most of that identity is not condusive to ffxiv general hi end game design.

---

I can "act" that way because it isn't inline because of the reasons you are giving. As I mentioned before, the presence of these more situational/rng skills don't define BLU, (because other classes have just as situational and rng skills in all of their iterations). BLU in ffxiv is already its own identity that doesn't conform to previous BLU mages as:

-Skills are rng learn chance (only 11 uses this)
-Blu has different leveling conditions to the other jobs
-BLU has its own elemental weakness mechanic (thats always been black mages niche)
-BLU can't be a party member, already a huge departure from other iterations of BLU
-Most of BLU's skills are repeats of each other with different elements (again this was BLMs identity not BLU)

Honestly the only identity that is consistent throughout BLU is it uses monster abilities, at it learns those abilities differently to other classes. Other than that every BLU has been a totally different kettle of fish, so by that arbitrary definition, yes FFXIV is "True to BLU" as it were, but it in no way justifies it being a limited job, and if it were missing the stupid situation skills which are brought up as to why BLU must be limited, it would still be inline with BLU's identity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I can "act" that way because it isn't inline because of the reasons you are giving. As I mentioned before, the presence of these more situational/rng skills don't define BLU, (because other classes have just as situational and rng skills in all of their iterations). BLU in ffxiv is already its own identity that doesn't conform to previous BLU mages as:

-Skills are rng learn chance (only 11 uses this)
-Blu has different leveling conditions to the other jobs
-BLU has its own elemental weakness mechanic (thats always been black mages niche)
-BLU can't be a party member, already a huge departure from other iterations of BLU
-Most of BLU's skills are repeats of each other with different elements (again this was BLMs identity not BLU)

Honestly the only identity that is consistent throughout BLU is it uses monster abilities, at it learns those abilities differently to other classes. Other than that every BLU has been a totally different kettle of fish, so by that arbitrary definition, yes FFXIV is "True to BLU" as it were, but it in no way justifies it being a limited job, and if it were missing the stupid situation skills which are brought up as to why BLU must be limited, it would still be inline with BLU's identity.

---

no most classes dont have as much situational /random skills/status in their skill lists. Only status on mages comes close, and that usually still caps at around 25% of their abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

no most classes dont have as much situational /random skills/status in their skill lists. Only status on mages comes close, and that usually still caps at around 25% of their abilities.

---

Gil toss for SAM comes to mind.