8.0 speculation

The Key works, albeit unreliably, without Azem's crystal and has done so at least twice before (and up to as many as five times, depending on how much you want to read into Queen Eternal's "worlds beyond"). Having said that, Preservation (Calyx) was evidently able to figure out how to make it work more reliably, or otherwise had inside knowledge on the thing that the Key's original Milallan handlers did not.

Besides which the Key's interdimensional bridging is nothing like Azem's magick. On the other hand it's essentially a massively upscaled variation on Halmarut's ability to punch holes in the dimensions, suggesting (to me) it may be more closely related to her than Azem. Even then though, we have no clear information on how the Lalafell / Milalla got it to work in the first place, let alone where it came from and if anyone else got it to work beforehand. Perhaps it responds only to a need and not a desire, or the dimensional bridging is only part of it's capabilities (that is to say, it could be a wish-granting device with limited capabilities). The fact the Ascians never bothered to scoop it up and exploit it tells us either they didn't know about it, didn't know how to make it function, or didn't think it worth the effort, and only the last of those raises fewer questions than it answers.

Regardless, according to Miyali the Key chooses its owner, not the other way around; while that sort of mysticism is rarely attached to nonsentient artifacts, if anyone would know it would be the descendants of Aloalo's Speaker.

All of which is to say we still have virtually no information on the Key other than "It can make bridges between the Source and reflections, sometimes," so "Azem created it for their future incarnation 12,000+ years ago to resolve the post-Endsinger crisis showing up now, which they knew about because of precognition; their symbol showing up when the Key was invoked proves it" is seriously jumping the gun.


And the fact Enuo has apparently been cast as a Voidsent lord means we still don't know where the plot is going, other than Halmarut's ominous "If you try to save [all of] the reflections, everything will be annihilated" Big Doomer Energy speech (which we still don't have the full context for, either).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Key works, albeit unreliably, without Azem's crystal and has done so at least twice before (and up to as many as five times, depending on how much you want to read into Queen Eternal's "worlds beyond"). Having said that, Preservation (Calyx) was evidently able to figure out how to make it work more reliably, or otherwise had inside knowledge on the thing that the Key's original Milallan handlers did not.

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Tbf, basically everything in that world is build on Aether, so I wouldn't be surprised if you can partially manipulate the key with it.
Azems magic is probably nothing else than teleportation magic turned up to eleven to some extent.

Another contenter is that the Key and it's function is one thing (maybe even something else entirely) and the Milalla plus others kinda "hijacked" it's function through Dynamis.
I guess they desperately wanted to be safed back then, which is a good starting point for using it.


My theory is still that the whole interdimensional travel is just a side effect and not the original purpose of the key.
I think the whole Azem thing could also simply be a bait and switch in the form of "using up" our crystal for the keys original purpose to unlock, kinda to really start anew elsewhere (the rebirth part basically).
At least I hope they don't dive too deeply into Azems past because the whole mystery is what makes them interesting.
We aren't Azem, only their reincarnation after all.
Them having planned everything would completely diminish our accomplishments imo.

Nevertheless, I have no idea what they are planning given this time all Shards seem to be in danger instead of just one.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

And the fact Enuo has apparently been cast as a Voidsent lord means we still don't know where the plot is going, other than Halmarut's ominous "If you try to save [all of] the reflections, everything will be annihilated" Big Doomer Energy speech (which we still don't have the full context for, either).

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Enuo could be interesting, because my thought is that he might not be a Voidsent lord, but rather a lord of Voidsent, if that makes sense. I actually suspect he might be a corrupted human, like Calofisteri--appropriately, another FFV reference boss that got tied to the Thirteenth.

It might be because I had the idea once before and am still attached to it, but I like the idea that Enuo is from Mhach, and is accidentally getting turned out in the present day, long after the fight he was invested in is over; he's a relic of a conflict nobody still alive has any stake in, but now he's our problem (as opposed to 'I'm technically from some ancient world but I mostly don't care and have my own goals', like Athena and Amon). Especially interesting because, to my knowledge, there's a very fitting part of the game's history that he could fit in: while we know Mhach got into voidsent and void magic later, with Shatotto and the birth of black magic being several centuries before then, we still don't know who introduced them to that. Given that was literally Enuo's FFV role, it makes sense for him to be the guy that did it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Enuo could be interesting, because my thought is that he might not be a Voidsent lord, but rather a lord of Voidsent, if that makes sense. I actually suspect he might be a corrupted human, like Calofisteri--appropriately, another FFV reference boss that got tied to the Thirteenth.

It might be because I had the idea once before and am still attached to it, but I like the idea that Enuo is from Mhach, and is accidentally getting turned out in the present day, long after the fight he was invested in is over; he's a relic of a conflict nobody still alive has any stake in, but now he's our problem (as opposed to 'I'm technically from some ancient world but I mostly don't care and have my own goals', like Athena and Amon). Especially interesting because, to my knowledge, there's a very fitting part of the game's history that he could fit in: while we know Mhach got into voidsent and void magic later, with Shatotto and the birth of black magic being several centuries before then, we still don't know who introduced them to that. Given that was literally Enuo's FFV role, it makes sense for him to be the guy that did it.

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Maybe we'll learn more about 14th's Enuo on the occult island. And if i'm bean honest, i thought the tomberry we met was Enuo.

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

Maybe we'll learn more about 14th's Enuo on the occult island. And if i'm bean honest, i thought the tomberry we met was Enuo.

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Archive (The tonberry) is speculated to be Omniscient from FF5, since both wear similar robes with similar patterns.

The name Omniscient also carries a similar meaning to Archive's knowledge and role in the Occult Island story. So it's definitely not a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

Archive (The tonberry) is speculated to be Omniscient from FF5, since both wear similar robes with similar patterns.

The name Omniscient also carries a similar meaning to Archive's knowledge and role in the Occult Island story. So it's definitely not a coincidence.

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And of course, Omniscient is the boss of the other side of the Forked Tower in FFV.

We are rapidly running out of FFV things to reference, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Enuo could be interesting, because my thought is that he might not be a Voidsent lord, but rather a lord of Voidsent, if that makes sense. I actually suspect he might be a corrupted human, like Calofisteri--appropriately, another FFV reference boss that got tied to the Thirteenth.

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I mean, unless voidsent can be created from beast souls as well as human(oid) souls, all voidsent are technically corrupted humans. Otherwise the delineation between "human" souls and beast souls is pointless.

I agree Enuo probably has some connection to the Thirteenth's past, since "random Voidsent warlord" is not a very interesting character and they already did that with the Cloud of Darkness (who could get away with it since, even in III, it didn't have much of a backstory and wasn't even hinted to exist until you defeated Xande). Mhachi progenitor of void arts does sound like a plausible backstory for him in this context.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

And of course, Omniscient is the boss of the other side of the Forked Tower in FFV.

We are rapidly running out of FFV things to reference, to be honest.

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Just off the top of my head we have:

Krile (blended a bit with IX's Zidane in 7.4)
Galuf and the Students of Baldesion
Gilgamesh
Calofisteri
Omega
Shinryu
Sirensong Sea's Ghido minion
Deltascape (Alte Roite, Catastrophe, Halicarnassus, [Neo] Exdeath)
Forbidden Land Eureka (name references III, but is overall more V coded)
Ronka
The Tycoon (references Alexander Highwind Tycoon)
Proto-Carbuncle
Occult Crescent (The Archive / Omniscient, V character cosplay outfits, mount, minions, Forked Tower: Blood / Magic, etc.)
Enuo

So yeah, they've mined V pretty good, which is why I don't think the next expansion is going to be V themed even if all we've got to go on right now is a V reference in Enuo and Halmarut saying all of the reflections can't survive (and the Source may be stripped of life if we try to do so).

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

a bit Ancient-y

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https://i.imgur.com/8tzaLkX.png

It's a little more than "a bit" (deadass 1:1).

Also, no serious person argues that Azem has perfect precog. In fact, the strongest evidence for Azem having precog is itself the other canon Echo Precog we have in the game — Mikoto Jinba's — whose precog is limited to specific events, lacking the surrounding contexts, and often causing more problems than solutions.

To that end, would it not make sense that instead of Azem planning every little thing out, it's more simply Azem planning for one specific thing (the Reflections collapsing sans Hydaelyn and Zodiark)? And no, the Reflections need not exist for the Ancients to make something that affects them. Azem's Signature Spell manipulates the Interdimensional Rift. We literally call Hades' and Hythlodaeus' Souls from Etheirys' Aetherial Sea all the way to the edge of the universe, we call on heroes from beyond the Rift to other places beyond the Rift.

A Key that looks "a bit" Ancient, that responds to Azem's Crystal/Essence (or Hades'!), that can project a symbol which should only be known by Azem and Hades, that manipulates the Rift (which Azem and the Ancients WERE familiar with), and that is connected to two of Hades' Bucket-List Locales, of which, Alzadaal's Legacy also has Azem's Sun?

I mean, come on. It's hardly conclusive, but it's not bare-bones as you've painted it out to be. Maybe Azem made it, maybe a reincarnation did. Maybe a Reflection's Civilization found Amaurotine Ruins and studied Concept Crystals to make it; incidentally ensuring its power can only be plumbed by those with the Echo, which we happen to have because we are the Sundered Soul of an Ancient (as Preservation were also after Krile for her Echo).

There's no shortage of possible reasons behind the Key's existence, but when the story has intentionally put all of this connective tissue there — whether it ends up substantial or not in the end — it's asking you to examine them by establishing what kind of person Azem was; as a character and as a force of nature within this story affecting those lives they pass through, lives like Hades', Hythlodaeus', Venat's, Themis', and the WoL's.

And for one to acknowledge Azem as a character with agency in this story requires entertaining what the story has put forth in its main and side content since ARR (and especially since 5.0/5.x); engaging with the notion that the story has always been — and will continue to be — about the Ancients and how their legacies affect contemporary Etheirys and its myriad peoples and cultures. Azem is as much their own character in CS3's Lore Bible as the WoL is, and if the writers intend to pursue that path for the Key, it's not all of a sudden "bad writing".

"It’s a secret! We have an idea of what they were up to… but we’re not sure if we’ll have a chance to talk about that in the future."

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Originally Posted by Prometeo

And for one to acknowledge Azem as a character with agency in this story requires entertaining what the story has put forth in its main and side content since ARR (and especially since 5.0/5.x); engaging with the notion that the story has always been — and will continue to be — about the Ancients and how their legacies affect contemporary Etheirys and its myriad peoples and cultures. Azem is as much their own character in CS3's Lore Bible as the WoL is, and if the writers intend to pursue that path for the Key, it's not all of a sudden "bad writing".

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The Ancients did not exist until 5.0. The reason the early Ascians were all over the place, vague as hell, and were saying things that only kinda make sense according to later canon (Lahabrea's Praetorium speech is full of 'not completely off-base but NOWHERE NEAR how it turned out') until Emet-Selch comes along is because, by admission of the developers themselves, they did not have a plan. The Ancients were a lingering thread from 1.0 that they had no real ideas for but kept stringing through for whatever reason (I suspect because they wanted a unified antagonist for the parts of the story that weren't the Garlean Empire), and they just sorta hoped that someone would eventually come up with something that let them do what they do best at: pretending that's what they meant the whole time.

This is not speculation or aspersion; this has all been said in interviews. This isn't even unique, or a negative: every ongoing story you've ever watched, read or played has been full of people improvising what comes next while making it look like they planned the whole thing, and XIV's dev team is exceptionally good at it! But it does mean that the Ancients are a johnny-come-lately plot beat and you shouldn't be acting like they've been here the whole time.

Also, the WoL is barely a character, and Azem is even less of one. But that's not the point I want to discuss here:

Yes, theoretically, Azem's future sight is not 'perfect precog'. So far they've guessed one thing right on-screen, and it seemed to be a pretty short-term one. But if it's suddenly revealed that they also had a vision that a tool that is unusuable in their world would be used twelve thousand years later, and they got enough information from that premonition to make that tool and have it be perfectly usable while being literally incapable of testing it (and in a story where testing this exact thing was let in as an actual story beat)? That is such a perfect bullseye of a shot that I don't think people are going to believe that it was the only one fired.

But mainly I think that any answer that centers the Ancients on this is dreadfully dull. If the key comes from the one society in the game's setting that could not and would not possibly use it, I'm sorely disappointed because it's the answer that doesn't possibly have an interesting 'why' for it. You tell me that Allag, Ivalice, or hell, that Baron made this? I'm interested, those guys would have a motive and a plan worth hearing about! But the Ancients? Nah, to them it's a paperweight.

Also, there is something that i was wondering about. Does the withering also exist in the 8th umbral calamity era?

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

Also, there is something that i was wondering about. Does the withering also exist in the 8th umbral calamity era?

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Probably not if it is the result of the "silence left by the will of the star", since neither "will of the star" is gone in that timeline.

My point isn't "the Developers planned all this from the start".

Yoshida mentioned one early ShB prod idea of an active Rejoining during the story, wherein the climax of the expansion would be the parallel world literally merging into the Source and altering the City-States— which is exactly how we see Interdimensional Fusion affect Alexandria and Yyasulani. That doesn't mean he knew there would be a big Interdimensional Fusion plot 7 years later. Likewise, Yoshida would not know in 2013 what the Ancients' story would be. But there was a base idea: "These guys came before the Eorzeans and they have some precursor knowledge/experience of 'humanity' they want to re/impose on Eorzea". Naturally, that base idea evolves in the outlinings of the Sundering in 2015 and the Convocation in 2017; those contexts inform how they write the world moving forward.

To this end, the Key being Ancient/Azem-bound is thematically and narratively sound; the larger scope theme of this second saga, is about Legacies. It's entirely reasonable that the Key is the story exploring Azem's Golden Legacy with us at its forefront. I don't disagree that Azem and WoL aren't "characters", because the Player is expected to puppeteer them, but CS3 explicitly characterizes them via the people around them. Hades and Alphi, Ryne and Themis, Venat and Lamaty'i.

Now, sure, the Key can't Fuse the (non-existent) Reflections, but it doesn't just Fuse Reflections. It manipulates the Rift and the Rift is just a part of the cosmology. If Azem's Spell can move Aether across the Rift — and verily, the vast span of the universe— despite being made prior to the Sundering, why is this any different? Ignoring Azem, the Key is all but confirmed to be some form of Auracite, and Auracite functions identically to Dynamis. Those two alone are whole cans of "hand-waving magicks that defy laws of reality in-and-out-of-universe" worms.

Again, look, I'm absolutely not discounting another civ having made it. In fact, to your point, we can speculate Ivalice was active during either the Second or Fourth Eras. Being in direct geographical proximity to the South Sea Isles, it both would line up perfectly with the first known chronological and regional debut of the Key (esp wrt the aforementioned Auracite-like attributes of the Key). If we go back to Ilsabard in 8.0 for Landis, Nhalmasque, and Corvos, Ivalice would probably make some appearance again, especially if it's tied to the Key.

But if the theory is that Azem foresaw a disturbance in the Lifestream and created something that forms Interdimensional bridges for Aether, how would the lack of Reflections back then change that? If the Key could facilitate the motion of Aether from one part of the World Unsundered to another part, through the Rift, accessed by use of the Echo, should that not fulfill all the necessary requirements to do what we know/see it does in the Fifth and Seventh Eras just as neatly as the Ivalice premise?

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Originally Posted by Prometeo

Ignoring Azem, the Key is all but confirmed to be some form of Auracite, and Auracite functions identically to Dynamis.

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Woah woah, where's this coming from? The key has not shown basically any properties of auracite so far? Auracite has one recurring property in all instances: the ability to absorb aether in some manner and often releasing it in some transformed manner. The black auracite, the Heart of Sabik, absorbed the aether of the primals and released as Ultima; white auracite absorbed the aether of Ascians and would release it after some small time; Ultima's auracite absorbed aether through wishes and returned it, amplifying it, turning its wielders into Lucavi; memoria absorbs the aether of eidolons and later voidsent, releasing only memories; the memory vessels absorb the "ghosts" of the Scions, and return them to their bodies; the Save the Queen stores massive quantities aether and, more importantly, the memories of the last Queen Gunnhildr, enough to manifest a primal; etc..

This is also dissimilar to akasha/dynamis, which is simply emotional energy normally snuffed by aether. Desire can and has been pushed through aether, and auracite explicitly absorbs immaterial, non-elemental, aether, which includes the aether of the soul, encompassing desires and wishes and will and other such mental and emotional bits and bobs. This is especially true since dynamis gets overpowered by aether, which auracite takes and amplifies.

The key has not shown any instance of absorbing aether or returning it. The key has shown no function of dynamis besides responding to desires (once, allegedly, thousands of years in the past, through unknown means), which aether does as well.

EDIT: Not that I'm saying that it can't and won't be auracite, just that there's no indication so far.

Totally paranoid thought, but what if The Key looks the way it does because it wants us to see it that way. It wants to lure us in with the Azem symbol and Ancient-looking design.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

EDIT: Not that I'm saying that it can't and won't be auracite, just that there's no indication so far.

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If the Key were "just" a chunk of auracite, it wouldn't have taken them the entire patch plotline to figure that out. Auracite has been handled by many characters, albeit primarily in side content; it's not an unknown thing, and functions in a known way (absorbs aether to include memories, and in the case of Ultima who is the main source of auracite, usually amplifies the desires of wielders to the point of mania). If it's auracite Ultima is likely plopping into the MSQ Big Bad seat and that's not something I see happening for complicated reasons.

The most likely answer is that it was indeed created by the Ancients in some form, even if whys and wherefores currently aren't apparent. It is almost always Ascians (Ancients) or Allagans, who are basically just their proxies via Emet-Selch. Either that or a currently unknown civilization; given as we don't know who created it or why, it might not even be native to the Source but instead originate from a civilization on the reflections. The first known use it has was to save the Milalla (neé Lalafell) from the Calamity of Ice, and it's whereabouts beforehand are unknown.

... regardless of origin, I'm more interested in what Halmarut's got to say and why saving the reflections will doom everyone and everything. A lot more important than the origins of the Key, given we know what it does (if not how to purposefully activate it or who made it and why).

Yeah, 'the key is auracite' is the exact same as 'the key is made by the Ancients' in that, while it's a perfectly likely answer when looking at the evidence, it is not confirmed, should not be taken as a given, and raises some seriously important questions to answer if it is. It's a less 'destructive' version than the Ancient theory, because there's not really any clear counter-evidence that the auracite theory would need to answer, or necessarily any lost potential or more interesting alternatives, but we've got a swathe of follow-up questions there. Cilia's right on the money with the big one: if it is auracite, why has that not already been called out?

My thought is that, while it is very plausibly auracite, that the fact that it is auracite is not helpful. Auracite's just a very magical and very dangerous rock; it's basically Fantasy Uranium. So while someone like Y'shtola would plausibly be able to identify it, it's the least useful answer on the list. It's like identifying that the bullet in the murder victim was shot from a gun; we just need way more info than that to have anything resembling a useful conclusion.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Totally paranoid thought, but what if The Key looks the way it does because it wants us to see it that way. It wants to lure us in with the Azem symbol and Ancient-looking design.

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I like this idea, but it needs to answer some questions. Specifically, the key has looked like this since at least Preservation had it; it looked like that in the flashback with Galuf, it looks like that in all of Preservation's diagrams. If it's 'luring us' with that imagery, why did it look like that back then, when we weren't even close to being a factor?

I don't think the key is shapeshift-y, there's no good evidence of it actively changing shape, but I do think it's plausible that it might be imitating Amaurotian aesthetics rather than being Amaurotian. And if that's true, the question is why: is this just an innocent or possibly even unintentional repetition of aesthetics, perhaps by people from shortly after the Sundering when those aesthetics were still observable? Or is it intentional bait or signaling for someone who knows what that is? And if it's the latter... who for? Because back when the key was first clearly observed in this form, the only people who could identify Ancient aesthetics weren't any of the Scions... it was thirteen planet-smashing assholes, and a lady in the Aetherial Sea trying her best. (Also some Ondo in the Tempest, but they didn't know what they were looking at.)

Somewhat 7.5 speculation but very much leads into what 8.0 might be about.

I couldn't help thinking after watching the trailer for 7.5 that whatever the withering is, is a natural process. Not like Meteion, an external threat which largely existed and was empowered by the natural process of life and the despair it inspired in mortals.
I paid maybe too much attention to the explanations in Shadowbringers about the shards and the rejoining processes. The points that stood out to me was that aether flows between the reflections, and it also flows back to the source. There is a lot of talk about water flowing down hill, rather like gravity. The story has already has us route a flow of aether to the first from the thirteenth. Thing is when there were 13 reflections, they were presumably balanced. I wonder if the first rejoining was harder, not just because the Ascians didn't know how, but because it's harder to initially break a balanced system. Once the system is unbalanced however, unbalancing it even more becomes easier.

What if the Source is now so much greater due to all the rejoinings that the remaining shards are going to rejoin without any influence. Thinking of aether as gravity, the Source's gravity is now so great it's pulling the reflections into itself, and the walls that might stop it are no longer reinforced by Hydaelyn and/or Zodiark. The Source would physically survive the rejoinings, but life on the Source and the reflections would not. Being rich in aether the Source would eventually produce new life, but it would take a long time for people to emerge from the soup of evolution. This could be the withering, and the Winterers plan a safe haven to wait out the period of no life (winter) until such a time as Ethierys can support life again.

This is where I see the key coming in for 8.0. Using the key to safely rejoin the worlds such that the withering and the winter of Ethierys does not happen.

Random speculation - very little evidence - just my thoughts after listening to the narration of the 7.5 trailer.

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Originally Posted by Lozza

Random speculation - very little evidence - just my thoughts after listening to the narration of the 7.5 trailer.

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This is generally the agreed upon circumstances of what's happening, until we get further clarification, although I will admit you expanded it a bit beyond what's commonly accepted.

The way Etheirys currently exists, due to Hydaelyn (f.k.a. "the will of the star"), is unnatural. Naturalistic fallacy notwithstanding, the order of things was a consequence of Hydaelyn and without her it has been acknowledged that the Source and reflections will naturally rejoin - albeit over eons rather than an instant, cataclysmic event. As the Ascian most in tune with nature, Halmarut may know otherwise (and this may be revealed in 7.5) but to our knowledge this is the way of things as they stand. What you're describing is essentially all the remaining rejoinings, all at once, instantly, which I also suspect is the truth behind Halmarut's ominous portents.

Additionally, one thing that was mentioned is that the aetherial state of the reflections affects other reflections as well as the Source; the Thirteenth becoming the Void (heavily Dark aspected) predisposed the First to Light. As such I suspect the elemental devastation we're seeing on the reflections is a consequence of that; the elements swing like a pendulum across dimensions. While this doesn't line up as neatly as I like (Lightning <-> Ice, and the Ice rejoining was the Sixth, which doesn't line up with the Ninth) it's the best theory I've got right now. (That said the Storm Surge was also accompanied by a massive flood, and the Tenth was rejoined in the Calamity of Water, so perhaps that's where the proof lies.)

Having said that there is no such thing as a "safe rejoining;" at present it's either Ascian style rejoining (which annihilates the reflection and devastates the source with the influx of elemental aether) or Interdimensional Fusion (which scars the landscape of Etheirys and produces a region of long-lasting, perhaps permanent, elemental imbalance). It's more likely the Key is "just" going to be used to cross over to other reflections, since the reflections we've already been to (First, Thirteenth, and Ninth) have already had long and mostly complete story arcs. (That leaves us with the Fourth, the Eighth, and the Eleventh as likely destinations.)

Fan Fest starts tomorrow and 7.5 drops Tuesday, so we should have something soon.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Having said that there is no such thing as a "safe rejoining;" at present it's either Ascian style rejoining (which annihilates the reflection and devastates the source with the influx of elemental aether) or Interdimensional Fusion (which scars the landscape of Etheirys and produces a region of long-lasting, perhaps permanent, elemental imbalance). It's more likely the Key is "just" going to be used to cross over to other reflections, since the reflections we've already been to (First, Thirteenth, and Ninth) have already had long and mostly complete story arcs. (That leaves us with the Fourth, the Eighth, and the Eleventh as likely destinations.)

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My other thought on this is that 8.0 is just doing what we did with the thirteenth and the first. The plot is using the key to network the reflections correctly to ensure aether can flow between them and thus balance the system. In my mind whether we have a safe rejoining or balancing the outcome and plot is largely the same.

It's clear that the withering is being framed as a natural process, sort of an inevitability of circumstances. But I don't think that's the whole truth; I think Calyx (and eventually us) is being lied to, and the truth is either completely other or is being greatly manipulated. After all, the person I'd most expect to have enough knowledge of a natural process to either fake one or lie about one convincingly is the Ascian whose old job was inventing plants.

If that's true, Calyx is probably smart enough to recognize he's not being sold the whole picture, which might be the context for that one-on-one with us in Mor Dhona. He probably doesn't respect us enough to let us in on any full idea he's got either, but I could see him singling us out to go 'hey, just between you and me: this girl's numbers aren't adding up, keep an eye out'.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Additionally, one thing that was mentioned is that the aetherial state of the reflections affects other reflections as well as the Source; the Thirteenth becoming the Void (heavily Dark aspected) predisposed the First to Light.

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Where has this actually been said, besides the Ascians convincing Cyella to go along with their plans?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Where has this actually been said, besides the Ascians convincing Cyella to go along with their plans?

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I honestly don't remember where, when, or who I heard it from, but I do remember hearing this in-game.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I honestly don't remember where, when, or who I heard it from, but I do remember hearing this in-game.

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You may be roughly recalling Ardbert's description of the First back in 3.x, and then accidentally fudging some details. It's also worth remembering that even the info Ardbert (and later Cylva) got is suspect, though, because it came from Elidibus being deliberately manipulative; we cannot trust they had accurate information, because we know they were being lied to about other things.

I think I'm a lot less trustful of Halmarut's whole spiel for seeing this in a very similar space. The game generally approaches including characters who are deceitful by having trustworthy members of the core cast actually recognize that they are; Elidibus, Teledji, Emet-Selch, and even Venat for a short period were all marked by the Scions (and in Teledji's case a couple others too) as people we shouldn't necessarily be taking at their word, even if they don't know the whole truth. So the fact that Halmarut has only ever shared scenes with Calyx makes it hard for me to believe her, because none of our usual 'lie detectors' have gotten a bead on her. She's in a similar state to pre-Shadowbringers Emet right now, and we definitely didn't know how to read him until the Scions first got to react to him directly.

So... with the trailer can we know stop pretending that the key isn't related to Azem and that the new official title of the WoL will be the "Wanderer" isn't a clear reference to Azem ?

Everything is linked to the previous Azem, and I refuse to think they made all that without making of Azem the "key" for saving the reflections.

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Originally Posted by Zackneifein

Everything is linked to the previous Azem, and I refuse to think they made all that without making of Azem the "key" for saving the reflections.

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If that was its purpose, RIP to those seven it failed to save (or eight, in an alternate timeline that we cannot access but still exists)

Are any other starving Roegadyn fanatics a itty-bitty-bit perturbed?

Where does this leave us? X'D

(I realise Viera somewhat had this thematic divorcing also, to a lesser extent. But they hadn't been waiting...)

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Originally Posted by eloralora

If that was its purpose, RIP to those seven it failed to save (or eight, in an alternate timeline that we cannot access but still exists)

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Well, that make Azem not an all-knowing God, simply someone that prepared something hoping it could help.
Or simply that unfortunatelly, for the WoL and all the circonstances allowing the end of the Meteion crisis, it had to happen.

I still don't fully trust The Key. It's too much power.

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Originally Posted by eloralora

If that was its purpose, RIP to those seven it failed to save (or eight, in an alternate timeline that we cannot access but still exists)

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History as far as we can observe it is fixed from our trip to Elpis until we return, so no timeline we can observe occurs where the previous rejoinings do not happen. Bootstrap paradox and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by RagAndBoneLady

Are any other starving Roegadyn fanatics a itty-bitty-bit perturbed?

Where does this leave us? X'D

(I realise Viera somewhat had this thematic divorcing also, to a lesser extent. But they hadn't been waiting...)

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Limsa is very much "the Roegadyn city," much like Ul'dah is heavily focused on Lalafell and Gridania is the Elezen city (despite being led by a Hyur mutate).

Surely the Roegadyn ancestral homelands being offscreen can't be worse than having them be turned into a Tactics derivative plotline? /s

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Originally Posted by RagAndBoneLady

Are any other starving Roegadyn fanatics a itty-bitty-bit perturbed?

Where does this leave us? X'D

(I realise Viera somewhat had this thematic divorcing also, to a lesser extent. But they hadn't been waiting...)

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Though I'm more of a Hellsguard enthusiast than a Sea Wolf, I did deflate a bit at seeing the obvious Nordic inspiration for the Fourth. I was kinda hoping we'd see something like that in Aerslaent eventually.... But it wouldn't be the first time they double up on inspiration, after all Ronka and certain Turali civilisations share with each other aesthetic.s

Well teaser released so...

looks like the focus will be the Shard that focus on Ice element and the main goal will be to figure out a way to fuse all shards back to the Source safely.

Also, looks like the civilization we will meet is some kind of high tech sky island civilization since they needed to advance technology to survive in the sky while everything below became frozen.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

the main goal will be to figure out a way to fuse all shards back to the Source safely.

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Wouldn't be so sure about that, personally. "Unite the stars unto one." is not the same as "Unite the stars into one".

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

Wouldn't be so sure about that, personally. "Unite the stars unto one." is not the same as "Unite the stars into one".

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I do not feel it will be the same as what the Ascians had planned.

My guess is that it will be more of fusing the shards into the source so the parts that are not damaged become part of the world. Thus, all locations remain the same but now the world is much larger with places that original were the Shards but only the part not damaged by Element alignment issues the Ascian created.

So now that we know the title of the expansion, we have to wonder why the 4th is impotent to saving the shards. Any idea?

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

So now that we know the title of the expansion, we have to wonder why the 4th is impotent to saving the shards. Any idea?

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Most likely related to the Elemental alignment issue with shards.

If I have to guess, allowing a Shard to become at the edge is causing instability that is also affecting the Source. If the Shard that the Ascians have already caused to be very close to full elemental instability to cause a Calamity is not rejoined or fixed soon, it may cause a chain reaction that leads to all shards destruction and eventually the Source.

And i think the beings we see on the trailer, let's call them Jötun for now. Are like the sin eaters and voidsents. Beings created when an elemental alignments went to far on one element.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The current trend seems to be blending the protagonists and antagonists of previous titles and having them play antagonistic roles in the plotline, which is likely why people are reading the leaves and coming up with that. I would prefer an original plotline instead of a loose adaptation of a previous entry, but that does seem to be the direction things are headed if post-Endwalker's Void Arc and Dawntrail are accurate bellwethers.

Were I a betting man (and I assure you, I am not) my money would be on X.

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Gaius is just Vayne in Gabranth's armor. HW ends with a fight against Knights of the Round, Zenos is the Sephiroth expy (every trait except personality), Emet-Selch is just Zemus with better PR. There is nothing truly original in this game, the only difference is between references to more popular games which you might know and the less popular games which you wouldn't.

ETA: Anyway I've been obsessively combing over the trailer and I've noticed a couple things, what happened to the fourth feels like a second retread of the background of FFIII (specifically the DS version) whereas the Void got the 2D version of events where the land was simply flooded by darkness it seems the fourth has the freezing aspect introduced in the DS version. In both cases we see the inhabitants have taken to the skies. Also the mentions of the promised land do give me VII vibes. Also the portal Meteor and the HW boys falls out of is most definitely the opposite side of the portal we're entering in the 7.5 trailer. Finally, assuming the old lady is one too, this might be the only monoracial shard given every other shown character is an Au Ra. With that said in that way its kinda like Au Ra HW (fitting to have the crew minus Ysayle (she deserved better) there).

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Originally Posted by LyrisAdamanteia

Gaius is just Vayne in Gabranth's armor. HW ends with a fight against Knights of the Round, Zenos is the Sephiroth expy (every trait except personality), Emet-Selch is just Zemus with better PR. There is nothing truly original in this game, the only difference is between references to more popular games which you might know and the less popular games which you wouldn't.

ETA: Anyway I've been obsessively combing over the trailer and I've noticed a couple things, what happened to the fourth feels like a second retread of the background of FFIII (specifically the DS version) whereas the Void got the 2D version of events where the land was simply flooded by darkness it seems the fourth has the freezing aspect introduced in the DS version. In both cases we see the inhabitants have taken to the skies. Also the mentions of the promised land do give me VII vibes. Also the portal Meteor and the HW boys falls out of is most definitely the opposite side of the portal we're entering in the 7.5 trailer. Finally, assuming the old lady is one too, this might be the only monoracial shard given every other shown character is an Au Ra. With that said in that way its kinda like Au Ra HW (fitting to have the crew minus Ysayle (she deserved better) there).

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The hooded lady is a miqo'te.

I am actually mostly interested in the mention of this being a saga of a "godless realm".
Does it allude to there being no more Ascians who could control the chaos they have caused through a rejoining, to the long lost era of the Ancients and the need of the life today to "do it's own thing" or is it actually literal in the form of there being no gods to help out mortals and such?

Right now Evercold gives me extreme Shb vibes but I don't think we will see an actual retelling of that. The focus on the old woman, the repeated mention of the pictures and Screenshots showing no ice as well as the notion of uniting the shards in some way or form makes me think, that there is some heavy bait and switch going on here.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

The hooded lady is a miqo'te.

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Yeah, just rewatched the trailer, her tail is real hard to see if you're not looking for it.