Another World First Clear got disqualified due to "Cheating"

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I like to do my own research. Can you point me to your source for this 99% so I can educate myself?

Thanks!

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Their source is that they made it up

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

...Then why rush to cheat through it if said raiders are supposedly equally desperate for content? They got exactly what they asked for, squandered it anyway, and then have to gall to come back saying "there's nothing to do" or "everything is soooo easy now".

One can't even say "they're not the same people" because I'm pretty sure PF mainstays and statics have the same small subset of players within them per data center (because it's not exactly the kind of content that pulls in newbies), and even if someone could prove they're not personally cheating, they can't really vouch for the other people they're with. How many players in the hardcore community can actually prove they've accomplished what they said they've done when even the supposed "best" going for world-first are caught cheating every single time? How many of those people with lopsided win rates in PVP actually did it legit now?

It goes beyond just questioning why content should be made for these players, but even for the ones that are fair and square about it, it just gets you side-eyed any time someone sees those titles/weapons/mounts because we're at the point where modding to the top isn't suspected, it's assumed.

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No offense but you really need to stop lumping an entire demographic together as though they all think alike. It would be no different if I faulted the entire casual playerbase for the woefully lackluster relic "grind" in EW. Just like a "not insignificant" amount of casual players essentially want things handled to them. Some raiders cheat. Fortunately, because this isn't a competitive game. It largely doesn't matter. The only experience they impact is their own.

Regardless, nothing has been "squandered." FRU has been widely popular since release, seeing 40-50+ parties daily basically from mid afternoon EST to the early hours. It's accomplished precisely what it's meant to do: keep the raid community as a whole active and thus, subscribed. As for rushing, you vastly overestimate the advantage these plugins offer. Grinded would have cleared within the same day even on console. Pixel Perfect is nowhere near significant enough to have any real impact save for maybe Kindred passing them. Doesn't mean they should be using it in a world race but the point remains. They didn't "rush". They're simply good.

I've already outlined why the content is made: to keep a sizable enough demographic active. FRU is doing just that despite yet another controversy. Why? Because just like the RP scene that has become inundated with mods, very few people care if it doesn't impact them. Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less what the WR does. I've cleared four of the five Ultimates, know I'm capable and enjoyed doing them. Except TOP. That's enough for me. And I'm fairly confident most players on the whole, regardless of their raiding skill level or even if they raid at all, feel the same way.

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

Their source is that they made it up

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I suppose it depends on their definition of "cheating." If it's literally anything third party then, technically, they're... still wrong but a lot closer. Of course, that also extends to the roleplay scene or even just your every day player wanting QoL improvement the devs either can't or simply refuse to update. Suffice it to say, it ain't just the raiders.

The point of the game is to have fun playing the game. That and difficulty is just as much a factor of how much time someone has to put in to do something as it is the technical difficulty of a challenge. The real reason that people even use mods and cheats is because they want to enjoy the content while it is fresh and complete it while it is fresh, unlike what it usually ends up being for the vast majority: A long slog that starts out exciting and then ends with feeling like a lot of time got wasted doing something rather unfun.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No offense but you really need to stop lumping an entire demographic together as though they all think alike. It would be no different if I faulted the entire casual playerbase for the woefully lackluster relic "grind" in EW. Just like a "not insignificant" amount of casual players essentially want things handled to them. Some raiders cheat. Fortunately, because this isn't a competitive game. It largely doesn't matter. The only experience they impact is their own.

Regardless, nothing has been "squandered." FRU has been widely popular since release, seeing 40-50+ parties daily basically from mid afternoon EST to the early hours. It's accomplished precisely what it's meant to do: keep the raid community as a whole active and thus, subscribed. As for rushing, you vastly overestimate the advantage these plugins offer. Grinded would have cleared within the same day even on console. Pixel Perfect is nowhere near significant enough to have any real impact save for maybe Kindred passing them. Doesn't mean they should be using it in a world race but the point remains. They didn't "rush". They're simply good.

I've already outlined why the content is made: to keep a sizable enough demographic active. FRU is doing just that despite yet another controversy. Why? Because just like the RP scene that has become inundated with mods, very few people care if it doesn't impact them. Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less what the WR does. I've cleared four of the five Ultimates, know I'm capable and enjoyed doing them. Except TOP. That's enough for me. And I'm fairly confident most players on the whole, regardless of their raiding skill level or even if they raid at all, feel the same way.



I suppose it depends on their definition of "cheating." If it's literally anything third party then, technically, they're... still wrong but a lot closer. Of course, that also extends to the roleplay scene or even just your every day player wanting QoL improvement the devs either can't or simply refuse to update. Suffice it to say, it ain't just the raiders.

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I know plenty of people (myself included) who liked TOP. So I disagree with your take there.

I think this just proves that Ultimate raids might actually be way too hard for most people.

Because if this many people are using such things to get by then it proves the raids might actually be the problem and not the players; of course there is people who might just be lazy and could possibly do it without such things, those are the ones that don't care either way.

Ah yes, "all raiders are cheaters", a statement as fair as:

- "All casuals love job simplifications"
- "All RPers are modders"
- "All top PvP players are wintraders"
- "All gatherers are bots"

A very reasonable stance to take, wouldn't you say? After all, all of the listed ones have happened more than once, same thing, right? The entire community needs to be condemned for it, right? :)

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I think this just proves that Ultimate raids might actually be way too hard for most people.

Because if this many people are using such things to get by then it proves the raids might actually be the problem and not the players; of course there is people who might just be lazy and could possibly do it without such things, those are the ones that don't care either way.

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I mean, they should be too hard for most people. This is content meant for the game's most skilled players. If content is accessible to everyone, then it can't be challenging for anyone except the least-skilled.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Right... it "doesn't matter" and yet people still rush to get on these leaderboards by any means necessary or just generally brag about their accomplishments while acting like they're highly skilled, or accusing the game of being "too easy", or constantly claiming "casuals are ruining the game" for the rest of them. I have the spine to admit I'm not that great at the game, but at least I don't cheat to make up for it, and now I can rightly assume most of the people in the raid community are a joke and they're fine with that apparently.

So yeah, we better not hear one damn peep out of anyone (least of all the hardcore players) the next time Square-Enix simplifies another job or trivializes/holds back on hardcore content because clearly a bunch of people don't actually care to play it as intended, and anyone who claims that they're allegedly able, can't be trusted at their word because it's just that prevalent to use mods and nobody cares that it is ...sometimes the playerbase really is the one to blame for why things change the way that they do, and then they act upset when Square-Enix tries to accommodate them based on our own actions. That EW relic? Yeah, I don't think you could pin that one solely on casual players if you tried, given what we've seen of the hardcore as of late. They still want to be spoon-fed, they just to be seen as a big boy while it happens, lol.

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They're rushing to be world first because that's literally the point of a race. None of them give a single outa about a leaderboard. Heck, a good portion of players at this level don't care about FFlogs at all beyond the invaluable information it provides. Or to put it bluntly, they don't about parsing. Which is the "leaderboard" equivalent. As for them supposedly bragging, can you name five teams who were racing? Or better yet, I'll give you Kindred for free. Name four of their eight players without looking it up. Generally, when you brag about something, you want to be in the spotlighted and your name known as a result. That's kind of the whole point. So either they are all downright terrible at bragging or you're just making stuff up as you go and lumping everyone together again.

Do some brag? Of course. People brag about having all their jobs at max level. Are we going to assume everyone does that though?

You're yet again vastly overestimating what these plugins can accomplish. You or I could install any one of them right now and we'd ne nowhere close to the level of play of groups like Kindred. That doesn't mean they should be used in a world race just so we're clear but you're trying to imply they can essentially carry inexperienced or downright bad players to top 50 success. It's absolute nonsense.

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That EW relic? Yeah, I don't think you could pin that one solely on casual players if you tried

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We most certainly can by your logic. After all, you've decided every raider is a dirty cheaters. Therefore, it's only fair to paint all casuals with that same brush as Aravell already outlined.

And before you point to the WF controversy. That is an example of one group cheating. Do others as well? Absolutely. Just like plenty of casual players love new SMN or AST while others despise them. It's almost like lumping everyone together is a bad way to argue.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I like to do my own research. Can you point me to your source for this 99% so I can educate myself?

Thanks!

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They are going to use cactbot for the New Ultimate too, if it helps you any..

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Well of course it's easy enough to find out who was racing because you had a bunch of people making videos and posts about it, just pouring out congratulations up until they got caught, and sure enough you'll still find people giving uncertain praise to the ones who didn't get caught (yet). Don't try to pretend this is some "humble" little thing that the community doesn't make a big deal out of in certain circles, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it in the first damn place.

And apparently they CAN carry inexperienced and downright bad players because that's what Kindred is by relying on them to win, and you attributing any "level of play" to them is comical because I doubt there's a single video out there of them doing anything legit, same as the rest of these supposedly "skilled" groups, and I feel confident enough in calling out every single goddamn one of them, and the raiding community as a whole including other YouTubers and streamers that showcase their clears, because not a single damn one of them can prove they haven't cheated (even console players are finding ways), that's how bloody ingrained it is to the point you're making EXCUSES for them in this post instead of acknowledging the problem for what it is that even those who might be genuinely good at the game are dragged into the mud as well, to the extent they can't even trust those they play with because they might be doing the cheating instead.

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This level of obsession goes beyond the talk of third-party in this game and into the levels of personal insecurities about your level of skill compared to others. Take a step back