They should put actual MMO players on the development team.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

They seem to me to be moving in the direction of instant gratification type MMOs like WoW, in which new content is added every couple of months that makes all of the gear you obtained from old content completely useless. I may be way off target here, but I don't think that's what the vast majority of us want to see in the future of XIV. It's likely the type of people that do enjoy this type of content are already playing, and will continue to play something else.

In addition to a large portion of the current player base being dissatisfied, I really don't think turning this game into a WoW clone to lure people away from games like Rift, Tera, and WoW will be very successful. Unless they completely delete the game and start over, it's just still going too be hard, slow paced, and grindy for the instant gratification types that play those other games. Anyway you slice it the majority of our FFXIV community, the FFXI community, and the people just waiting to give this game another chance are not the same demographic as WoW. Hell, in a lot of our inner circles the term "WoW-Player" is a derogatory remark... Not trying to offend anyone who played WoW, but it's true.

A lot of people are putting their faith in SE's marketing research, but the only place that's getting them is, "Well WoW is the best selling MMO; let's make XIV more like WoW." The thing that these professionals who don't have as much if MMO play experience don't understand is that this isn't the same type of MMO as WoW, and that's why it would do them a lot of good, again in my opinion, to have a lot more input from the community, or at least some people who know what their talking about.

I think that SE would be more successful by turning this game into what we expected it to be, and by doing so bringing back all the people that shelved the game a week after it came out. The only way they're going to be able to do that in my opinion, is by figuring out the things we all want as demographic because I don't think they have a very tight grasp on it.

I would sure hope someone learned that at SE after the launch of FFXIV, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

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I've been reading a lot of this... Not in the same words, but their reasoning and/or feelings are basically the same. People are afraid that FFXIV will turn out to be a WoW-clone. The only think i can come up with is "Why?". Why do people think that way?

Is it because they've introduced "Dungeons"? Is it the Content-Finder they want to implement? The Need-Greed-system for distributing loot? Perhaps the "MMO on rails" because we would "need" to do quests in order to level (fast)?

I just can't wrap my head around that... I mean, do these features make FFXIV a WoW-clone? What about the Armory system? You can level every class on 1 single character or switch between classes just by equipping another weapon. What about they jobs they've introduces at the beginning of this year? What about the available races (they are based on their FF11 counterparts)? What about the way they present the story (with cutscenes and all)? What about the lore and the general feel of the game?

All of these items do not remind me of WoW. Not in the slightest...

Sure, WoW had "Dungeons"... Sure, the "Content Finder" resembles the "Dungeon Finder" from WoW... Sure, the fastest way to level my characters was to do "Continous Quest" while wearing Hierlooms... But, still... There is nothing wrong with implementing a feature which is similar to another game, like WoW. As long as it has been well thought of, designed properly and implemented seamlessly into the game in a way that it feels like it was meant to be there in the first place, then what seems to be the problem?

Whenever the term "WoW" or "WoW-player" comes up, there are quite a few people who use it in the most negative sense. Turning their backs to them, raising their noses, "spitting" on them... By doing that, aren't we behaving like (elitist) jerks ourselves? Why can't "we" leave them be, have them enjoy their game while we enjoy ours?

I also read quite a few complaints which fit the description "Why can't they turn this game into something we expect it to be?". The biggest question is...

What DO we expect it to be?

If we ask ourselves that and discuss it amongst ourselves, you will notice that everyone has a different idea or expectation about this game. Then ask yourself this... How is a software developer (it doesn't really matter who) going to make this game in a way that it fit all of our expectations?

"You cannot please everyone."

A software developer has to make the most of it in a way that "most" people would enjoy their product. From veterans to new customers. Sure, they will make decisions that will displease (or even enrage) both veterans and new customers. SE can't win them all, but they will try their best to get as many people interested in their game as they possibly can.

The only thing we can do is provide SE with what we feel would fit best in the game. Those things could be based on the earlier iterations of the Final Fantasy Franchise, from other games, or even "Brain-farts" you had while eating your breakfast... That's what the forums are there for... That's what the community reps are there for... They are our "gateway" to the Software Developers. Use it wisely...

But also, be nice to one another... If someone presents their idea or view on the game on the forum, there is no need to bash it into the ground. Not all idea's are great, but they don't deserve to be flamed/bashed for it.

Sorry for the wall of text, but those are my "2 cents".

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Originally Posted by Aldora

People are afraid that FFXIV will turn out to be a WoW-clone. The only think i can come up with is "Why?". Why do people think that way?

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Well I can't speak for everyone, but some of the issues that I'm concerned about personally are:

1: Taking away experience points parties and forcing us to quest to level.

2: Adding new content at fast intervals (once every two months for example) that makes all of the gear you had before useless.

3: Making the ratio of stats obtained from materia on gear 1:1 with base stats, so that there is only a slight difference between the nukes of a well geared blm vs one in AF for example. This servers to make the game more instant gratification friendly like WoW.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Well I can't speak for everyone, but some of the issues that I'm concerned about personally are:

1: Taking away experience points parties and forcing us to quest to level.

2: Adding new content at fast intervals (once every two months for example) that makes all of the gear you had before useless.

3: Making the ratio of stats obtained from materia on gear 1:1 with base stats, so that there is only a slight difference between the nukes of a well geared blm vs one in AF for example. This servers to make the game more instant gratification friendly like WoW.

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May I address some things again?

1. There's nothing in any interview that says that Experience Parties will cease to exist. It will however, cease to be the most effective means.

Yesterday I got invited to an EXP party. I diddn't have to get an EXP party and it actually was a touch slower than it would have taken me to level Solo. But I took it, because I wanted to party with other people for a while. And we did. It was fun.

Having quests be the most effective means of EXP won't take away from that experience. If anything there will probably be more people getting together now, stricty to do party oriented quests, then they are nowadays grinding, because doing Leves is so much easier solo and XP parties aren't really a big thing.

2: Skirmish was an example to the contrary to that statement just recently. The weapons aren't any better than what we currently have, they're an alternative for those who are working towards better long term gear. But more importnatly...

3 : This conflicts directly with 2. If Stats are not as important, then you're not going to worry so much about new gear coming out that would be 'better' now will you? You'll be doing content you want for the gear you want, rather than pushing yourself up 'tiers' of content that will be worthless in a few weeks anyways.

So 3 Alleviates 2.

And a note about instant gratification: It's not bad. I want to ask where we got it into our heads that it's wrong to enjoy every step of our gaming experience? Why do we have to be miserable in order to ascertain a long-term feeling of accomplishment? Can't the process be entertaining as well?

We're going to go after the shiny loot - simply because it's shiny and we wants it. If getting some instant gratification in while we work towards the more shiny loot is a bad thing, then I don't want it to be good, because ultimately fun is better. The longer we can retain that feeling of fun, the better off this game will be overall.

The min-maxers will still push to be the best, and still will get their feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment. But not having the best loot won't mean you feel inadequate to play content. This is a smart decision as it makes the game feel more inclusive. Scrutinizing by Gear-score was a mistake that WoW made that we don't want to repeat here. I'm glad SE is making steps so that won't happen.

Again, somewhere down the line we got the wrong idea as to what MMOs is supposed to be about - namely, we became totally obsessed with the loot and nothing else. I'm glad to see that developers are realizing to push away from that.

But the gameplay has to make up for that Skinner Box mentality as well. It needs to be fun to repeat, it needs not to be the same thing every time, and there still needs to feel like there is a sense of progression, preferably a steady progression rather than pushing until your luck works out for you.

So far, the indications given to us as far as where they are going with this design can go either way. But I don't think your first two worries will happen, and the third one might actually wind up being a benefit for the game, rather than a curse.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

1. There's nothing in any interview that says that Experience Parties will cease to exist. It will however, cease to be the most effective means.

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I hope they put a fair share of group content in for these quests they're adding so that people will know how to play their jobs in a group setting end game. Not that it isn't already an issue with power leveling I guess heh.

I played FFXI from October 23 2003 - August 9th 2009. After that time I've played several MMOs extensively. WoW, Aion, Rift, AoC, Fallen Earth, and I tried Tera recently. All of those games use the solo quest to level concept, so I can say based on my varied experience with it, I really, really :mad:hate:mad: it. That's just my opinion though, I realize that not everyone will feel that way. I suspect that a lot of XIV players who are also former XI players may feel the same though.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

2: Skirmish was an example to the contrary to that statement just recently. The weapons aren't any better than what we currently have, they're an alternative for those who are working towards better long term gear. But more importnatly...

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That depends entirely how many times you meld them.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

: This conflicts directly with 2. If Stats are not as important, then you're not going to worry so much about new gear coming out that would be 'better' now will you? You'll be doing content you want for the gear you want, rather than pushing yourself up 'tiers' of content that will be worthless in a few weeks anyways.

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Well I myself and many others will always want to have the best gear available. Making gear less desirable isn't going to solve that for us. It's just going to make it feel less rewarding. Not to mention how upsetting its going to be to all of those who've spend exorbitant amounts of time getting good melded gear.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

And a note about instant gratification: It's not bad. I want to ask where we got it into our heads that it's wrong to enjoy every step of our gaming experience? Why do we have to be miserable in order to ascertain a long-term feeling of accomplishment? Can't the process be entertaining as well?

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Say for example obtaining a relic was easy and enjoyable, everyone would have one. Instead it's hard and frustrating, so people who have one are less in number, and it gives you a stronger sense of accomplishment. Instant gratification has its place, but let's not over do it.

I'll give you an example of what I don't want. In WoW, two months after starting the game, I had a full set of Heroic 25man tier10 gear for my paladin. That was the hardest gear to obtain at the time... I beat the game in 2 months. I'd rather XIV didn't turn into that.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

We're going to go after the shiny loot - simply because it's shiny and we wants it. If getting some instant gratification in while we work towards the more shiny loot is a bad thing, then I don't want it to be good, because ultimately fun is better. The longer we can retain that feeling of fun, the better off this game will be overall.

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For me the loot is the fun lol. I know not everyone's like that though, but a lot of people are.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Scrutinizing by Gear-score was a mistake that WoW made that we don't want to repeat here. I'm glad SE is making steps so that won't happen.

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Yeah I guess you're right.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Again, somewhere down the line we got the wrong idea as to what MMOs is supposed to be about - namely, we became totally obsessed with the loot and nothing else. I'm glad to see that developers are realizing to push away from that.

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That's what I've always played MMO's for lol

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So far, the indications given to us as far as where they are going with this design can go either way. But I don't think your first two worries will happen, and the third one might actually wind up being a benefit for the game, rather than a curse.

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I hope you're correct. To be honest after I read this I have even bigger worries now... Summons and Chocobos.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

I find this sort of offensive. Only giving hardcore players a position on the team is like suggesting making the game ridiculous for people that cannot provide the same amount of time that a hardcore player can. Of course, in an MMORPG, one that I, many others, and YoshiP envision is a themepark. You have your fun content, grinding, quests, hardcore content, etc.

Hardcore players tend to do all of that, yes, but usually a hardcore player wants everything to be challenging

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Casual players want everything handed to them for 10 minutes of work if we're stereotyping, here.

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Not many people have linkshells that do this kind of content. I mean I am lucky enough to have gotten through Skirmish a few times, but with content like Garuda or Ifrit, a stable group of the same people does not leave any room for new players to come and experience any of it.

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Community issue, not a game design issue. The problem is players don't want to take the time to train/teach someone how to do certain fights -- you lose nothing out of teaching someone how to fight Ifrit or Garuda unless working on a relic.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

That's what I've always played MMO's for lol

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I remember once upon a time, back in the UO and RO days...
Where I played MMOs to kill stuff with my friends :/

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I'll give you an example of what I don't want. In WoW, two months after starting the game, I had a full set of Heroic 25man tier10 gear for my paladin. That was the hardest gear to obtain at the time... I beat the game in 2 months. I'd rather XIV didn't turn into that.

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It took ~2 months for the best guild in the world to defeat Lich King in Heroic... So yeah. WoW and similar games offer more challenge at the moment for hardcore players than XIV ever offered.